Author Topic: White Fragility  (Read 15830 times)

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4082
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2020, 03:22:19 PM »
Once again, it seems that some only want to take part in tough discussions when they, in advance, get to define all the terms.


I guess that you can define your terms any way you'd like.  But as Pr. Stoffregen rightly noted, "white supremacy" has for decades (at least) been understood universally to apply only to those "radical groups that promote caucasians as the better race."  These groups and this belief have been roundly rejected by the vast majority of Americans for a very long time.


Now, radical groups and pop sociologists want to extend the term, and the condemnation that goes with it, to any number of vaguely defined, mostly mainstream groups, institutions, beliefs, etc.  (The lack of clear definition, by the way, is a feature not a bug.  It permits never-ending use of the term to expand the net to cover more and more and more.)  And for some reason, you think that this is a good thing.


This is ultimately nothing more or less than a power-seeking exercise, having little to do with race, racism, or justice.
  [size=78%]Everyone will be far better served when we reject the ways of the self-described Marxists and get back to reality.  Let's define with specificity specific problems within our institutions and then fix those problems.  Let's start with asking why the murder of innocent people of color has skyrocketed since BLM and Antifa started their anti-law-enforcement crusade.  Unless you think that the radicals and their pop [/size][/size]sociology are more important than black lives.[size=78%]

passerby

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2020, 04:18:43 PM »
As she says, "Most white people do not identify with these images of white supremacists and so take great umbrage to the term being used more broadly."

I certainly agree with that sentiment.  It's a bait and switch from where I stand.

I'd wager most people who hear "TEh pRezIDenT is A wHitE SupRemICAST" on social media don't have in mind the "sociological meaning" (that is, the meaning sociologists attached to an already existent description of hate groups).
You're right, they don't. But of course you are no longer talking about the book under consideration--you've switched.

Peace,
Michael

Well, I am talking about your description of what the book argues, to wit, that ...

She does use the term white supremacy, but she clearly distinguishes its sociological meaning from the popular consciousness that solely associates it with radical groups (p. 28). As she says, "Most white people do not identify with these images of white supremacists and so take great umbrage to the term being used more broadly."

Your response doesn't really seem to take counter-arguments to that concept seriously.  I think you granted the book doesn't either, but that strikes me as a problem.  Re-defining terms, especially terms that have a rightly pejorative gloss, strikes me as problematic.

It's as if the term is now re-defined and cannot be un-defined or even explained.  Now that it is in popular use as a synonym for Klansmen and Neo-Nazis, we'll now just use it to describe broader concepts (like America), with no concern that the change in terms won't be well understood.  Worse, we'll blame those subject to the new pejorative for not making the distinction and objecting to the characterization.  Leftist thought policing tends to be a one-way ratchet that way, but those of us who find it dishonest aren't likely to simply concede the point, especially when the rhetoric is aimed in our direction.

White Fragility is just another popularized version of critical race theory that has found its way from academia into corporate life. The movement from universities to the workplace is not so surprising given that the same thing has happened with feminism and LGBTQ activism. Whatever one thinks of DiAngelo's ideas, keep in mind that this ideology (that systemic racism is baked into American society) has had a chilling effect in academic discourse and freedom. I will be teaching criminology in a summer course next week and feel I am stepping on to a minefield of topics where a the wrong phrasing of a concept (maybe I forgot to upper case "Blacks" in my Powerpoint presentations) or trying to portray policing realistically can get me in trouble with a very woke sociology/criminology department. I do not have the privilege of tenure and am hired on a year-by-year basis, so please keep this concern in your prayers.

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12583
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2020, 04:38:16 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.


On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Julio

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Still awaiting the Certified Election Results!
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2020, 05:24:21 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.


On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Please do not forget Officer Dorn .. also killed by a black man ... it is becoming clear that the horror expressed by those who despise the statement “All lives matter” is because really only some black lives matter. :(

Muchas Gracias

Julio

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2020, 06:50:12 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.


On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?


Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Chuck

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2020, 07:36:36 PM »
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
"At least 336 people have been murdered in Chicago through July 2, according to the Chicago Police Department; because murders typically increase in the summer, the city is on track to match the 778 deaths in 2016, its deadliest year since the mid-1990s. (New York City, with almost three times the population, had 176 murders as of June 28.)"
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/05/us/chicago-shootings.html
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

Chuck

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2020, 07:45:04 PM »
Or for June only:"There was a 34% increase in the number of murders over the same period, last year. There were also 45% more shootings."
https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/chicago-crime-statistics-for-june-spike-in-murders-shootings/
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12583
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2020, 07:49:01 PM »
But if they didn't go viral on the internet, weren't by a police officer, they don't matter? We should make policing policy, indict an entire race for racism on the basis of what goes viral on the internet? Not important if just a murder.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Julio

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Still awaiting the Certified Election Results!
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2020, 09:00:00 PM »
On May 25, a Black man, George Floyd was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis while three other officers watched. His murder sparked protests around the world, also anger and outrage over his killing sparked riots, looting, arson, and other assaults and mayhem.

On June 20, a 19 year old Black man, Lorenzo Anderson was shot and killed in the Seattle CHOP area. On June 29, a 16 year old Black man was shot and killed in the same CHOP area. Where have been the protests and outrage for the murder of these two young men? Where have been the demands for justice? These deaths passed with hardly a ripple. Did their lives not matter because they were most likely not murdered by the police? Should their deaths be allowed to fade from attention because their deaths do not support but even tends to give the lie to the narrative police are an occupying force that brings violence to neighborhoods and that without the police neighborhoods would be safer places where young Black men can live and move about without fear?
Their murders did not become a viral video on the internet. We could also talk about how many people have been shot and killed in Chicago over the last month - and they don't make national news. (I don't even know how many make local Chicago news.)
The New York Times reports on violence in The City.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/nyregion/murders-nyc-guns-crime.html
Just imagine how much safer The City will be next year when they defund the police. :(

Gracias!  Julio

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12583
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2020, 10:00:31 PM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
So yah, people say "defund the police," dismantle the police," or "disband the police" but they don't really mean that, they just mean let's make the police better. Please share your secret decoder ring. But then you always figure that you know better than we do what we really mean, so why not?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4082
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2020, 10:27:49 PM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.


The president of the Minneapolis City Council is.  So are others. 

Julio

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Still awaiting the Certified Election Results!
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2020, 12:17:43 AM »
Let’s get real. Nobody nowhere is  talking about taking all the money away from the police and closing up police departments. Nobody is talking about eliminating police; the conversation is about making them better.
Who is being real about defunding police?? The deliberate absurdity of eliminating the police was introduced by yourself.

Seattle had CHOP ... and its murders and rape in the ‘police free zone’. Defunded police at its best.

One can only wonder what kind of anarchy will be tolerated in Seattle when they defund the police according to this newspaper article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/majority-of-seattle-council-pledges-to-support-police-department-defunding-plan-laid-out-by-advocates/%3famp=1

How many dead Seattle residents will result from their social experiment?

Buenas Noches!

Julio

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4082
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2020, 12:55:31 AM »
Are you folks really so clueless about political and movement rhetoric? Do you not understand the sloganeering and overstatements and boisterous shouts that people use when rallying troops at the beginning of a campaign or when passions are high?
"Don't trust anyone over 30!" (way back in the day)
"Lock her up!" 
Furthermore, movement rhetoric shouts are not policy statements or program suggestions.
And, since socially and politically, the prospect of eliminating police forces is pretty remote, why get all mind-foundering manic about those particular words?
So regarding the shouts about abolishing police forces, I urge upon those projecting a city without police officers another word from closer to our time: Chill.


Just the partial defunding and disempowering of the police in NYC, Chicago, and elsewhere has led directly to the murder of innocent people of color.  And you tell us to chill.  Do Black lives not matter to you?   


As for your statement that the shouted "rhetoric" is not intended as "policy statements" or "program suggestions," that's simply not true.  Just ask Minneapolis's mayor, who made the mistake of sharing your assumption that protestors didn't really mean what they said.  As one of BLM's senior leaders from Philadelphia said in the last day, the goal is the "complete abolition" of the police department "within five years."  Link She and other BLM leaders have rejected the notion that reforms will do any good.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2020, 02:10:06 AM »
But if they didn't go viral on the internet, weren't by a police officer, they don't matter? We should make policing policy, indict an entire race for racism on the basis of what goes viral on the internet? Not important if just a murder.


When murders are committed by police officers they have often been covered up. Public opinion, e.g. viral internet posts has caused law enforcement officers to be charged when they probably wouldn’t have been without the video evidence. I would venture to guess that whenever there are videos of murders the perpetrators are convicted.


When the internet includes racial slurs, especially by a group against a black or Latino or Asian, then there is likely racism involved.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Jeremy_Loesch

  • ALPB Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: White Fragility
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2020, 06:31:27 AM »
Political and movement sloganeering:

"Since the Bible is unlear on this topic we will totally respect all church members who hold to one of these four beliefs on human sexuality and marriage."  ;)

That will fit nicely on a sandwich board.

Jeremy