Author Topic: Mockingbird on Confederacy  (Read 14139 times)

DCharlton

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 6790
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2020, 12:15:41 PM »
The confederacy was about preserving the institution of slavery. The clear reasons given for secession show this. The myth of the lost cause is the revisionist  history. I understand folks can get swept up in that myth and that even good and decent people can get swept up in that myth. But it is a false myth and it should be kept in distinction from the south. <Emphasis Added>
Between Abe Lincoln's election as President and his inauguration into office, there were
7 Southern states which seceded from the Union.  There were slave owners in Northern
states and slave owners in Southern states.  Obviously, the majority of slave owners
lived in the South and part of their economy was built on slavery.

From a U.S. Constitution point of view President Lincoln saw 11 states eventually secede
from the Union. His main goal was to preserve the United States of America from becoming
two separate nations. Lincoln did not believe that an individual state had the power to
secede.

One of the ironies of the Civil War is that the leaders of the Confederacy where quite explicit about their reasons for secession.  It was about slavery.  Lincoln and other leaders of the Union where afraid of making the war about slavery until 1863.  They wanted to make it about preserving the Union.  Many have argued that the Emancipation Proclamation turned the tide of the war by taking the United Kingdom out of the equation.  As long as the war was about preserving the Union, the U.K. provided support to the south.  When slavery became the issue, that support was withdrawn. 

After the war, narrative was reversed.  Southerners claimed it wasn't about slavery, and northerners claimed that it was.  <Emphasis Added>
Hopefully this will end the unnecessary posturing and name calling.  Apparently there are enough valid theories for all but the least tolerant amongst us.🧐

Actually, though, I am agreeing with Matt.  During the Civil War, the southern politicians were quite clear that it was about slavery.  It was after the war that they claimed in wasn't.  (I' making a distinction between the politicians and other people.)  Ironically, the northern politicians denied it was about slavery until it became strategically advantageous to say it was.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

James J Eivan

  • Guest
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2020, 12:53:01 PM »
The confederacy was about preserving the institution of slavery. The clear reasons given for secession show this. The myth of the lost cause is the revisionist  history. I understand folks can get swept up in that myth and that even good and decent people can get swept up in that myth. But it is a false myth and it should be kept in distinction from the south. <Emphasis Added>
Between Abe Lincoln's election as President and his inauguration into office, there were
7 Southern states which seceded from the Union.  There were slave owners in Northern
states and slave owners in Southern states.  Obviously, the majority of slave owners
lived in the South and part of their economy was built on slavery.

From a U.S. Constitution point of view President Lincoln saw 11 states eventually secede
from the Union. His main goal was to preserve the United States of America from becoming
two separate nations. Lincoln did not believe that an individual state had the power to
secede.

One of the ironies of the Civil War is that the leaders of the Confederacy where quite explicit about their reasons for secession.  It was about slavery.  Lincoln and other leaders of the Union where afraid of making the war about slavery until 1863.  They wanted to make it about preserving the Union.  Many have argued that the Emancipation Proclamation turned the tide of the war by taking the United Kingdom out of the equation.  As long as the war was about preserving the Union, the U.K. provided support to the south.  When slavery became the issue, that support was withdrawn. 

After the war, narrative was reversed.  Southerners claimed it wasn't about slavery, and northerners claimed that it was.  <Emphasis Added>
Hopefully this will end the unnecessary posturing and name calling.  Apparently there are enough valid theories for all but the least tolerant amongst us.🧐

Actually, though, I am agreeing with Matt.  During the Civil War, the southern politicians were quite clear that it was about slavery.  It was after the war that they claimed in wasn't.  (I' making a distinction between the politicians and other people.)  Ironically, the northern politicians denied it was about slavery until it became strategically advantageous to say it was.
Precisely the point ...both sides are guilty of posturing .. altering their reasoning for their perceived benefit.


The issue is Rev Staneckís reoccurring Ďrevisionistí and mythological labeling he attempts to slap on anyone failing to believe the as he. 


Your post clearly indicates that even among the actual participants on both sides the reasoning was rather fluid ... apparently changing in an attempt to win over public/world opinion.


 I respect, but disagree with Rev Staneck ... had the revisionist/myth labels not been introduced, my comments would have been vastly different.

passerby

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2020, 11:17:41 PM »
The NYT strikes again: http://www.nyt.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-protests-white-supremacy-html. The reporter seems to draw a straight line between protesting police brutality and the legitimacy of illegally knocking down statutes, including Christopher Columbus,  and the notion that most Americans support the Black Lives Matter movement. On the latter point, have more than a small segment of  Americans read the goals and positions of the actual movement? It seems like it was written for a college newspaper.   

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12798
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2020, 06:37:35 AM »
Here is an op-Ed opinion piece from the allegedly biased New York Times on the Bible and the rage of those oppressed. It is by a priest of the Anglican Church in North America who teaches at Wheaton College so I would guess he is not one of those angry liberals. Note that it is an opinion piece, not news reporting.
And can you imagine? I like what he says.
That other link upstream does not go to the right page and I note that the link is supposed to go to an opinion piece not news reporting. that means the writer is allowed to draw the lines wherever he wants. It is his opinion, not news reporting.
Here is todayís piece on the Bible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/opinion/george-floyd-psalms-bible.html
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:02:12 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 16657
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2020, 09:20:58 AM »
Right on cue, a memorial to John Greenleaf Whittier has been vandalized, and there are calls to remove it. Iíll try to get the link later; my phone apparently doesnít feel like it.

Pr. Don Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11160
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2020, 09:33:02 AM »
Peter,

I found that on Twitter and FB but not in any news article.
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12798
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #141 on: June 15, 2020, 09:35:08 AM »
Peter, over-enthusiasm in a concern does that mean that the whole concern is wrong.
A School principal is wrong to say a teacher canít have a Bible on the desk. But that does not mean that the concern for keeping sectarian prayer out of public schools is not valid.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Pr. Don Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11160
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #142 on: June 15, 2020, 09:37:43 AM »
Peter, over-enthusiasm in a concern does that mean that the whole concern is wrong.

No, it does not. That would be a misconversion of a particular proposition to a universal.
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 16657
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #143 on: June 15, 2020, 09:56:13 AM »
Peter, over-enthusiasm in a concern does that mean that the whole concern is wrong.
A School principal is wrong to say a teacher canít have a Bible on the desk. But that does not mean that the concern for keeping sectarian prayer out of public schools is not valid.
My concern isn't over-enthusiasm. It is any enthusiasm for the cause of erasing history. One side side America and Western Civilization are flawed forces for good that ought to be improved and preserved. The other side says they are inherently forces for oppression and must be uprooted. I reject that latter position entirely. Their enthusiasm and their over-enthusiasm are cancerous.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12798
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #144 on: June 15, 2020, 11:13:55 AM »
Peter:
One side side America and Western Civilization are flawed forces for good that ought to be improved and preserved. The other side says they are inherently forces for oppression and must be uprooted. I reject that latter position entirely.
Me:
I reject that latter position too, Peter, but I do not think that is what is largely afoot today. Apparently you do.
And I reject the division into two mutually exclusive ďsidesĒ. Not everything about western civilization, and of course that needs definition, needs to be continued.
Not everything about western civilization needs to be thrown down. But some things do.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

DCharlton

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 6790
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2020, 12:40:59 PM »
An interesting article on the Confederate Monument question, by Kevin Williamson: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/confederate-monuments-controversy-democrat-vs-democrat-question/#slide-1

While thinking that we as a nation and as local communities need to do a more honest job of remembering our history, I also agree that in many ways monument mania is distracting us more pertinent question, which is the failure Democratic run cities to deal with race, crime and police reform.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 12:42:48 PM by DCharlton »
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 16657
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2020, 01:40:47 PM »
Peter,

I found that on Twitter and FB but not in any news article.
I saw it through an aggregator linked through Instapundit, so I donít know what the whole story is. There was a photo, though.

DCharlton

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 6790
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #147 on: June 18, 2020, 06:04:23 PM »
For those who don't think this includes removing cemetery monuments and tombstones:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/confederate-memorial-by-silver-spring-church-toppled/ar-BB15FKXt?ocid=spartandhp  If you read the story, you will see that it is a grave marker for 17 dead soldiers.  Soon we will be exhuming bodies and putting them in garbage dumps.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12067
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2020, 10:08:06 PM »
A segment of 60 minutes tonight examined the Confederate monuments, particularly in Richmond, VA:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-the-history-and-future-of-confederate-monuments-2020-07-12/

Dave Benke

Robert Johnson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: Mockingbird on Confederacy
« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2020, 07:06:30 PM »
A segment of 60 minutes tonight examined the Confederate monuments, particularly in Richmond, VA:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-the-history-and-future-of-confederate-monuments-2020-07-12/

Dave Benke

You don't live in Richmond, or even Virginia. I don't live in New York and I basically don't care what you do there. Why is it important to you what the people of Richmond, Virginia do?