Author Topic: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy  (Read 4838 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2020, 12:01:23 PM »
So then one post, one guy with anything connected to positivity on rioting.  "One" fails the "many" test by at least a few, if not many.

Dave Benke
Hmmm. A goofy link was enough to get you started thinking in terms of trends. I just went to the one post I remembered specifically.

And I note that we’re back in the language hole, because the official word is that it is b.s. to think someone who says rioting is as a American as apple pie and often accomplishes a lot of good is excusing or defending rioting.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2020, 12:17:15 PM »
I have to admit that I was not interested to check out this thread until I saw so much activity.  Then I clinked on the link, considering the source, to see what started it all.

The author has had a long history of issues and conflicts with a variety of church bodies, going back to the ELCA, through Missouri, then Wisconsin/ELS, finally ending up independent.  He sees all of these denominations as having major problems, and I'm sure is disgusted that it appears no one (or few) within these church bodies is raising a hackle as he would be inclined to do.  He characterizes members of these church bodies as apparently mindless followers who willingly accept whatever is going on and have no ability to discern the problems that need to be addressed.  Okay. Guess we are all entitled to our opinions. 

I remain within my denomination not because it is perfect, but because it confesses as I confess.  Looking for the perfect denominations is a fool's errand.  We won't find one of those this side of heaven. 

The author of this blog site has also taken great issue with what he identifies as a chief heresy in the mainline Lutheran denominations: objective justification.  I have never really understood his reasoning on this one.

Well, I read his blog post and still remain clueless.  Perhaps he will expand and explain more on his blog after he reads the posts of a thread dedicated to his blog post.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dave Benke

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2020, 01:50:59 PM »
As to "many posts excusing/defending rioting," I'd have to see one.  There have been posts encouraging marching in protest.  That's not rioting.

He asks for one, and is given one. Then...

So then one post, one guy with anything connected to positivity on rioting.  "One" fails the "many" test by at least a few, if not many.

Learning from Brian, I see.

What am I missing?  One guy, two posts?  Or is it still one guy, one post that somebody else mentioned?  I don't follow all the threads post to post.  I thought there was a substantial crew here saying rioting is good.  One guy, one response does not make that real.

As to the guy referenced from goofyville, yes, he is from goofyville.  As to the second group referenced by the guy who posted the link, it's worse than goofy, it's proudly virulent.  So maybe it's the guy posting the goofy links.  What's his deal?  No doubt it's The Truth.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2020, 02:01:22 PM »
As to "many posts excusing/defending rioting," I'd have to see one.  There have been posts encouraging marching in protest.  That's not rioting.

He asks for one, and is given one. Then...

So then one post, one guy with anything connected to positivity on rioting.  "One" fails the "many" test by at least a few, if not many.

Learning from Brian, I see.

What am I missing?  One guy, two posts?  Or is it still one guy, one post that somebody else mentioned?  I don't follow all the threads post to post.  I thought there was a substantial crew here saying rioting is good.  One guy, one response does not make that real.

As to the guy referenced from goofyville, yes, he is from goofyville.  As to the second group referenced by the guy who posted the link, it's worse than goofy, it's proudly virulent.  So maybe it's the guy posting the goofy links.  What's his deal?  No doubt it's The Truth.

Dave Benke
I was simply responding to your implication that the forum might be trending "alt-right" by pointing out that is it trending in no such direction. You asked a question. It was answered. You can choose to keep revisiting it or not, your call. But the fact will remain that people post here from all across the spectrum.

James J Eivan

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2020, 03:36:38 PM »
Bull crap, Peter. I am merely notIng that rioting for good causes is rather prominent in our history. Personally I don’t necessarily endorse it, although one has to be honest and noticed that it sometimes accomplishes things.
And, as I have said many times, we need to understand why the rioters riot, rather than just hit them with sledgehammers.
If we spent more time wondering why they do what they do rather than what they do, we might be a little further along.
But, of course, we’re not going to listen to anybody until they become nice polite people like us.
Our Lord and Saviour clearly states 'He that is not for me is against me is against me.' The willful failure of some time condemn the willful and deliberate destruction of our neighbor'so and property and business is tragic beyond belief.


There is no divine command 'two wrongs make a right' ...thus is beyond comprehension that those who can soundly condemn LCMS Polity and practice can be so spineless in condemnation of rioting and looting. 


No amount of rioting and looting ... even of murderous abortuaries can be considered God pleasing  ... failing to condemn sin is a failure to love God above all things.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2020, 07:17:28 PM »
Our Lord and Saviour clearly states 'He that is not for me is against me is against me.' The willful failure of some time condemn the willful and deliberate destruction of our neighbor'so and property and business is tragic beyond belief.


Yes, we have a record of Jesus saying, "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matthew 12:30 // Luke 11:23).


We also have a record of Jesus saying nearly the opposite: "For the one who is not against us is for us" (Mark 9:40). And, "… for the one who is not against you is for you" (Luke 9:50).


So, for the millions of people who are not attending a Christian church, are they against Jesus or are the for us?

Quote
There is no divine command 'two wrongs make a right' ...thus is beyond comprehension that those who can soundly condemn LCMS Polity and practice can be so spineless in condemnation of rioting and looting. 


There is a divine command that no one is right. Both those who condemn the rioting and those who support it are sinners in need of repentance. Those who rioted and looted did wrong and need to repent. Those who stayed home and did nothing did wrong and need to repent.

Quote
No amount of rioting and looting ... even of murderous abortuaries can be considered God pleasing  ... failing to condemn sin is a failure to love God above all things.


Neither can we conclude that those who stayed safe at home doing nothing to promote justice and life did what was God pleasing. There are also sins of omission: failing to do what one should do. Luther was a genius in his explanations of the Ten commandments. Breaking them involves both things we did that we shouldn't have done and also things we should have done but failed to do.


Your attempts to try and make any act righteous and God-pleasing will fail.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RDPreus

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2020, 07:27:31 PM »
There is such a thing as civic righteousness.  It is good to refrain from looting and burning your neighbor's business.  It is bad to loot and burn your neighbor's business.  If those representing the church cannot say this it is no wonder that the unchurched who strive to live decent lives in this world want nothing to do with the church.  Who needs a church that can't even tell you what's right and wrong?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2020, 08:56:55 PM »
There is such a thing as civic righteousness.  It is good to refrain from looting and burning your neighbor's business.  It is bad to loot and burn your neighbor's business.  If those representing the church cannot say this it is no wonder that the unchurched who strive to live decent lives in this world want nothing to do with the church.  Who needs a church that can't even tell you what's right and wrong?


If you've read many of my posts, you'd know that I have posted often about civil righteousness and our ability to achieve some measure of it. I believe that this falls under the first use of the law. It's part of our growth in constantly learning how to better love our neighbors as ourselves. As Christians we should strive for better and better civil righteousness; to be more moral people. As Christians we also have to insist that our civil righteousness, no matter how good (nor how bad) does not make us righteous before God.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 12:05:04 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

TERJr

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2020, 09:45:27 AM »
L’ironie devient presque douloureuse.

readselerttoo

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2020, 10:32:19 AM »
There is such a thing as civic righteousness.  It is good to refrain from looting and burning your neighbor's business.  It is bad to loot and burn your neighbor's business.  If those representing the church cannot say this it is no wonder that the unchurched who strive to live decent lives in this world want nothing to do with the church.  Who needs a church that can't even tell you what's right and wrong?


If you've read many of my posts, you'd know that I have posted often about civil righteousness and our ability to achieve some measure of it. I believe that this falls under the first use of the law. It's part of our growth in constantly learning how to better love our neighbors as ourselves. As Christians we should strive for better and better civil righteousness; to be more moral people. As Christians we also have to insist that our civil righteousness, no matter how good (nor how bad) makes us righteous before God.

I think you mean that before God our civil righteousness does not stand.

mariemeyer

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 11:09:26 AM »
Two nutsy links in two days by one person.  Plus the heresy hunter from Minnesota.  ALPB forum trending to the right/far right/alt right? 

Dave Benke
Out of how many posts? Many, many posts excusing/defending rioting. Forum Online trending woke/Marxist/SJ Warrior? Someone linked to a goofy blog. Everyone either ignored that blog or dismissed it. You call that a trend?

I didn't call it a trend.  I asked whether it is.  As to "many posts excusing/defending rioting," I'd have to see one.  There have been posts encouraging marching in protest.  That's not rioting.

The most recent link is not to a goofy blog, but to the Bible Thumping Wingnut Network and Pulpit and Pen, described as the chief polemics division of Christianity in America, which links it to the heresy hunter division of the Lutheran endeavor, even though the heresy hunting is not directly connected.  Polemics, hunting, rooting out, purposeful in those ways.

My evaluation is that it's not a trend, just an incursion.

Dave Benke

Although I have not read Christian News for several years, I seem to recall that blogger Jackson and David Becker contributed articles  to the paper. 

Might someone else remember reading articles by them in Christian News?

Marie Meyer

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 11:41:10 AM »
I don't remember Jackson but I do remember a LaMarr Blecker?  Could that be of whom you are thinking? 

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 12:04:35 PM »
There is such a thing as civic righteousness.  It is good to refrain from looting and burning your neighbor's business.  It is bad to loot and burn your neighbor's business.  If those representing the church cannot say this it is no wonder that the unchurched who strive to live decent lives in this world want nothing to do with the church.  Who needs a church that can't even tell you what's right and wrong?


If you've read many of my posts, you'd know that I have posted often about civil righteousness and our ability to achieve some measure of it. I believe that this falls under the first use of the law. It's part of our growth in constantly learning how to better love our neighbors as ourselves. As Christians we should strive for better and better civil righteousness; to be more moral people. As Christians we also have to insist that our civil righteousness, no matter how good (nor how bad) does not make us righteous before God.

I think you mean that before God our civil righteousness does not stand.


Oops, forgot the not. Fixed it.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James J Eivan

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 12:05:56 PM »
Two nutsy links in two days by one person.  Plus the heresy hunter from Minnesota.  ALPB forum trending to the right/far right/alt right? 

Dave Benke
Nothing like personal attack and name calling to further dialogue amongst forum participants.

Why not directly address the the specific issues disagreed with rather than blanket name calling of those  disagreed with?

Charles Austin

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Re: Lutherdom Has Become the Sleeping Pygmy
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 12:39:47 PM »
Because sometimes you have to call a nut a nut. And in most of those cases everyone with common sense knows you are right to do so.
For example, what else would you call the person with that “Ichabod” blog?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.