Author Topic: Trinity Sunday  (Read 7005 times)

James J Eivan

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2020, 05:08:16 PM »
I don't understand why people make up benedictions when the Aaronic and Pauline benedictions are so very good.  I don't understand why TLH page 15 (LSB page 184) isn't everyone's favorite setting for the Divine Service.  I don't understand why those who gave us LBW and LW thought that "This is the Feast" is a worthy replacement of the Gloria in Excelsis.  I don't understand why people don't prefer the great Lutheran chorales to schmaltzy 19th century Methodist hymns.  Here I'm planning to retire in a couple of months and there are still so many things I can't understand!  :)
Oh, and I don't understand why everyone doesn't confess the Athanasian Creed every Trinity Sunday.
LIKE!
I fail to understand why so many hymns had to be re-written  ... and truncated and/or beautiful historical hymn tune arrangements butchered.


 If one had the intelligence in LW to sing 'How Great Thou Art', why in God's Holy Name were we too stupid to sing 'Come Thou Almighty King' on The Feast of The Holy Trinity?

readselerttoo

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2020, 05:14:00 PM »
Obviously the final blessing attempts to address the relational aspect between Father, Son and Holy Spirit by avoiding and omitting it.  Sterile language produces a sterile blessing.  There is no personal warmth except in the reference to the Holy Spirit as the Comforter.  While it may be true about these functions of the Persons, Jesus is more than the Christ.  He is the Father's only begotten (one and only, ie. unique, one of a kind) Son as well as the redeemer of sinner-humanity.  To avoid the Father-Son reference is to lose much of what Christianity is about, imo.  And I suspect the congregation omitted confession of the Creeds unless they used a Person-less version of those creeds which I know are out there.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 05:15:57 PM by readselerttoo »

Weedon

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2020, 05:23:38 PM »
Pete,

I think I pointed out back then: Hart’s cirtique fails on the grounds that the Western Litany uses the exact same lingo and did before the schism in the undivided Church:

“Pater de caelis Deus, miserere nobis. Fili Redemptor mundi Deus, miserere nobis. Spiritus Sancte Deus, miserere nobis.” 
“O God the Father in heaven: Have mercy upon us. O God the Son, Redeemer of the world: Have mercy upon us. O God the Holy Ghost: Have mercy upon us.”

James J Eivan

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2020, 05:35:13 PM »
What do you bumped into, Dave likeness, Sounds bad, and probably was bad.
But I’m wondering whether one might find, in large numbers of Missouri Synod congregations this morning, a focus totally on the doctrine of the holy Trinity and virtually nothing about what is going on in our country today. That would be bad, too.
Comparing the deliberate avoidance of Biblical language when pronouncing the Aaronic Benediction with the omission of a social ministry topic in LCMS sermons is quite laughable  ... and quite tragic. 


Comparing the two is a horrendously invalid apples and oranges comparison.

The omission of social ministry topics, no matter how timely and current in no way is comparable to altering the inspired inerrant Word of The Living God so satisfy the sinful selfish desire of a small but vocal minority is a sad example of theology run a muck.


The fact that Rev Austin continues to express his disdain with the LCMS is tragically repetitious and painfully predictably.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2020, 05:57:21 PM »
The Scripture reading was Psalm 8 from THE MESSAGE paraphrase by Peterson.
The Homily  centered around the fact that we need to repent of racism due to
the Minneapolis murder which has captured our attention in recent days.


I consider THE MESSAGE to be a translation. Peterson taught Hebrew and Greek. He made his translation from the original languages. Not like Taylor and The Living Bible where he paraphrased from an English translation.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2020, 05:59:56 PM »
What do you bumped into, Dave likeness, Sounds bad, and probably was bad.
But I’m wondering whether one might find, in large numbers of Missouri Synod congregations this morning, a focus totally on the doctrine of the holy Trinity and virtually nothing about what is going on in our country today. That would be bad, too.
Comparing the deliberate avoidance of Biblical language when pronouncing the Aaronic Benediction with the omission of a social ministry topic in LCMS sermons is quite laughable  ... and quite tragic.
 


So, you would prefer an Old Testament text with no reference to the Trinity over a contemporary composition that is clearly trinitarian?

Quote
Comparing the two is a horrendously invalid apples and oranges comparison.


Yup, one is about the Trinity. The other isn't.

Quote
The omission of social ministry topics, no matter how timely and current in no way is comparable to altering the inspired inerrant Word of The Living God so satisfy the sinful selfish desire of a small but vocal minority is a sad example of theology run a muck.


Theology that has no connection with real life is a dead theology.

Quote
The fact that Rev Austin continues to express his disdain with the LCMS is tragically repetitious and painfully predictably.


Well, the LCMS my wife grew up in, and who ran the college we attended and graduated from is not the LCMS of today.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:01:46 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 06:05:34 PM »
Dog’s Eulogy on Holy Trinity Sunday

He was a good dog in the ways all dogs are good. Really good in the ways some are.

An infallible old pope (not a poetic new pope) declared that after death we can see our dogs in the “eternity of Christ.”
I wish I could baptize my dog.
I don’t know about his faith- but he does good work: He has a stained-glass window dedicated to him at a church in town. The pastor said kids come to the church “for Jesus and that dog.”

I have carried him for walks in two of his sixteen years; the first because he was too small and now this last year because he spins around a shriveled leg like a dervish with a lost shoe. His days are spins and pants and he naps long naps.

I can carry him because he’s kid-size. I got him when my son grew too big to hold. I rock him without my always noticing. As a new dad I rocked my kid, bags of groceries, tool boxes; new dads do that. The dog lets me rock him. He doesn’t squirm. Mellow.

On our walk I carry him besides the hedgerows. See his nose dart left and right as he picks up the faded morse code from far-below pee spots and dashes. He gets his information second-hand from the barking around the hills. A gossip is an echotier in French- my dog passes on the echoing barks in his foreign pink tongue.

Luther had his dog Toelpel who will be in heaven “with a golden tail.” The kind reformer and kind pope were comforting crying children. I want to be comforted. My ailing dog is older by two years than Kipling’s.

There was a German pastor kicked out of the church for baptizing cats. Imagine the third splash of water- all yowls, claws and the unwinding of a broken spring. My old dog wouldn’t fuss at the splashes of water.

One, two, three: He’d calmly, respectfully lick the Trinity off his nose- feathers and all- trusting something good was happening that he didn’t fully understand.
Pete Garrison, STS

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 06:16:29 PM »
What do you bumped into, Dave likeness, Sounds bad, and probably was bad.
But I’m wondering whether one might find, in large numbers of Missouri Synod congregations this morning, a focus totally on the doctrine of the holy Trinity and virtually nothing about what is going on in our country today. That would be bad, too.
Comparing the deliberate avoidance of Biblical language when pronouncing the Aaronic Benediction with the omission of a social ministry topic in LCMS sermons is quite laughable  ... and quite tragic.
 


So, you would prefer an Old Testament text with no reference to the Trinity over a contemporary composition that is clearly trinitarian?

Quote
Comparing the two is a horrendously invalid apples and oranges comparison.


Yup, one is about the Trinity. The other isn't.

Quote
The omission of social ministry topics, no matter how timely and current in no way is comparable to altering the inspired inerrant Word of The Living God so satisfy the sinful selfish desire of a small but vocal minority is a sad example of theology run a muck.


Theology that has no connection with real life is a dead theology.

Quote
The fact that Rev Austin continues to express his disdain with the LCMS is tragically repetitious and painfully predictably.


Well, the LCMS my wife grew up in, and who ran the college we attended and graduated from is not the LCMS of today.
What does the LCMS teach today that it didn’t teach back when your wife was in it?

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 08:03:31 PM »
David Hart told me the same thing about the LCMS committal service, where is says, "May God the Father, who created this body, God the Son who by His blood redeemed this body, and God the Holy Spirit who through Holy Baptism sanctified this body to be His temple keep these remains until the day of the resurrection of all flesh." He said the Orthodox would never say that. On the other hand, he said they would say something like , "May God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God in three persons, who created this body..." and it would take forever. But it wouldn't mess up the doctrine of the Trinity, or even feint in that direction.

Since you mentioned the Orthodox:  We don't say anything like that in the Funeral, Burial, or Memorial services.

But since today is Orthodox Pentecost, you may appreciate this excerpt from the sixth of the seven "kneeling prayers" from the Kneeling Vespers of Pentecost, which is served immediately following the Divine Liturgy:

Quote
The glorious wisdom of the Father, You are the great help of those in peril, giving light to those in darkness and the shadow of death. Lord of everlasting glory, beloved Son of the Most High, eternal light of eternal light, Sun of righteousness, hear our supplications and give rest to the souls of Your servants, our fathers and brothers and other kin by blood, and all of the household of faith who have since fallen asleep and whose memorial we keep this day. For in You is the strength of all and in Your hand You hold the far reaches of the earth. Almighty Master, God of our Fathers and Lord merciful Lord of the living and the dead, Creator of all mortal nature, composed and again dissolved, of life and of death, of earthly existence and of the departure hence, You measure out the years for the living and set times of death, bringing down to Hades and raising up, fettering in weakness and liberating in power; You provide aptly for the present and fittingly dispose what is to come, restoring those who are wounded by the sting of death with the hope of resurrection.

Master, Lord of all, our God and Redeemer, the hope of all, at the ends of the earth and far away at sea, on this latter great and saving day of Pentecost You disclosed to us the mystery of the holy, consubstantial, co-eternal and life-giving Trinity, indivisible yet distinct, and in the descent and presence of Your holy and life-giving Spirit poured out its grace upon Your holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues, making them proclaimers and confessors of our holy Faith, of true knowledge of God. On this universal and salutary feast, deign to accept petitions for those imprisoned in Hades, thus giving us great hope, and relief to the departed from their grievous distress and Your comfort.

Hear us, humble and pitiable, as we pray to You, and give rest to the souls of Your Servants who have departed this life, in a place of light, a place of renewed life, a joyous place, shunned alike by pain and sorrow and sighing. And place their spirits where the Righteous dwell, counting them worthy of peace and repose; for the dead do not praise You, Lord, nor do those in Hades dare to offer You glory, but it is we the living who bless and entreat You and offer You propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 08:05:26 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

TERJr

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 08:15:00 PM »
Tom writes:
 The writing (in Sunday’s and Seasons) is at best clumsy and often excruciatingly bad.
If you can restrain your knee jerk reactions to criticism of the ELCA—including by those of us who are still in it—I doubt you would sign off on publishing much of what is in Sundays and Seasons.

I comment:
You probably do not remember the times here when I have been critical of the ELCA and have specifically voiced my not so humble opinion that S&S is often a terrible mess of inelegant,inept language and goofy riffs on theology. I frequently rewrote most of the prayers and usually did not use the tinkering with “traditional” (At least since 1959) liturgical language. If I felt the need for alternatives to the SBH or LBW, I generally went to the Book of Common Prayer.

Charles,
I don’t think we disagree then.

p.s. Smallmouth on a fly rod are a lot of fun.

Charles Austin

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2020, 09:22:17 PM »
Bluefish on a rod and reel 4 miles off shore are fun too. And surf-casting on the Jersey Shore when you get a 30-inch striper on line.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2020, 09:37:13 PM »
I'm loving these references to fishing on Orthodox Pentecost.

Troparion of Pentecost

Blessed   are   You ,   O   Christ   our   God ,   
who   made   fishermen   all - wise ,   
sending   upon   them   the   Holy   Spirit 
and ,   through   them ,   drawing   the   world .   
O   Loving   One ,   glory   to   You!

We sang that 15 times today between Orthros, Liturgy, and Kneeling Vespers.

This is a "praise chorus" of antiquity!
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

JEdwards

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2020, 10:40:37 PM »
What does the LCMS teach today that it didn’t teach back when your wife was in it?
That documents other than the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions bind the teaching and preaching of LCMS pastors. See the actions of the 1973 Convention with respect to “A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles” by JAO Preus.

Peace,
Jon

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2020, 01:48:59 AM »
What does the LCMS teach today that it didn’t teach back when your wife was in it?


One big difference is that they were willing to be in fellowship with the ALC. Some of the leaders and many of the clergy of the LCMS were taught by the professors that were expelled/walked out of Concordia, St. Louis. I could sit down and have conversations with LCMS clergy taught by those professors. They would listen and speak. We could have our differences and still be respectful of each other. One of my good friends with such an LCMS minister - ordained in 1968. We disagreed about women's ordination. We still got together at least monthly for beer and conversation. He expressed his disagreement with the newer clergy over their narrow-mindedness and judgmentalness. He talked about a district president he new in Wisconsin (where he had grown up) who did not want Fort Wayne grads coming in because there were some who wanted to take away some freedoms in some of the more moderate congregations, e.g., take away the women's right to vote. He was fearful when a new district president was elected that there were some who might come after him for heresy. He was more moderate - having been taught by those expelled professors. He also saw his congregation as the church for all Lutherans, since my ALC congregation was 20 miles and two towns away. His daughter and her husband moved to a town that had no LCMS congregation so they joined the ELCA church rather than not be Lutheran. They, with their pastor, invited him to participate in his grandchild's baptism and he did - something I know some LCMS clergy in this forum would refuse to do.

In contrast, I did visit once with another LCMS clergy in the area who was much more conservative. The ALC minister who served in a town between us also preached every week at a Methodist congregation. The LCMS guy at first said the couldn't do that. Then he changed his mind. "I would be willing to preach there once, but I would tell the people that if they agreed with what he preached to them, they should join an LCMS congregation." That strikes me as a belief that comes pretty close to saying that we are the only true church.

Back then, I traveled on gospel teams: first for LBI in Seattle; then LEM out of Minneapolis; then a little bit with LYA (a west coast start-up from LYE). I know that there were times we led worship in LCMS congregations. We were Lutherans. That's all that mattered. I doubt that such a ministry would happen in today's LCMS.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Trinity Sunday
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2020, 01:55:14 AM »
What does the LCMS teach today that it didn’t teach back when your wife was in it?
That documents other than the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions bind the teaching and preaching of LCMS pastors. See the actions of the 1973 Convention with respect to “A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles” by JAO Preus.


Prior to that document, many in the LCMS were pretty much like the ALC and LCA in their critical approach to scriptures. That changed.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]