Author Topic: Defunding the Police  (Read 9444 times)

The Yak

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2020, 12:49:02 PM »
A Wall Street Journal opinion piece:

From the article:

Mr. Fryer said that because of changes in police behavior following investigations in these and other cities, “my estimates show that we lost a thousand more lives, most of them black as well, because of an increase in homicides.” The protesters and their political allies insist that policing is the problem, but when police pull back, black communities are hit hardest.

...

And now we know how scapegoating law enforcement can backfire in ways that do the most harm to our most vulnerable communities. “I never would have guessed that if police stopped putting in the effort, that homicides would change like this,” said Mr. Fryer. “You hear some people say ‘Oh, we want to police our own neighborhoods, get out.’ No, you don’t want that. I guess I always knew it was a foolish idea, but I didn’t realize it was this deadly.”
Rev. Dr. Scott Yak imow
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James_Gale

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2020, 01:20:56 PM »
A Wall Street Journal opinion piece:

From the article:

Mr. Fryer said that because of changes in police behavior following investigations in these and other cities, “my estimates show that we lost a thousand more lives, most of them black as well, because of an increase in homicides.” The protesters and their political allies insist that policing is the problem, but when police pull back, black communities are hit hardest.

...

And now we know how scapegoating law enforcement can backfire in ways that do the most harm to our most vulnerable communities. “I never would have guessed that if police stopped putting in the effort, that homicides would change like this,” said Mr. Fryer. “You hear some people say ‘Oh, we want to police our own neighborhoods, get out.’ No, you don’t want that. I guess I always knew it was a foolish idea, but I didn’t realize it was this deadly.”



It may be relevant to some here that "Mr. Fryer" is Dr. Roland Fryer, an African-American professor or economics at Harvard.  Professor Fryer in 2017 published a paper entitled "An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force." Link 


In the paper's abstract, Dr. Fryer writes that on "non-lethal use of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police."  Controls accounting for "important context and civilian behavior" partially explains the disparity.  By contrast, the data show "no racial differences" in officer-involved shootings "in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account."  (Recent studies at Michigan State and the University of Maryland have reached the same basic conclusion regarding the use by police of lethal force.)


Dr. Fryer ends his paper by admitting uncertainty regarding the implications of his study:


The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces.

Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation, is the possibility that racial differences in police use of non-lethal force has spillovers on myriad dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters.






peter_speckhard

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2020, 10:04:31 PM »
I may have spoken too soon about what people mean by defunding the police.

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/06/06/watch-as-minneapolis-mayor-jacob-frey-is-booed-out-of-a-protest-for-refusing-calls-to-defund-the-police/

One comfort in troubled times is that people who favor chaos over order tend not to coordinate their efforts very well.

Edit: I think the most surprising thing about the videos is that the mayor of Minneapolis looks like a college student. Man, I must be getting old.

Also, he couldn't possibly have abased himself any more than he did and it wasn't enough. Unless he publicly committed, as mayor, to making the largest city in the state bereft of police officers, he was shamed out of the gathering. I thought the handled it well.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 11:58:01 PM by peter_speckhard »

peter_speckhard

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2020, 10:17:10 PM »
Sorry, try this link.

https://youtu.be/4gTRJ4T3MHM

Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2020, 10:53:53 PM »
That was something to watch. From that video defund the police means abolish the police. He gave a pretty reasonable answer and it wasn't good enough. He was supposed to grovel and beg but that wouldn't have been good enough.

Jeremy

James J Eivan

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2020, 11:03:14 PM »
Sorry, try this link.

https://youtu.be/4gTRJ4T3MHM
A shocking but predictable example of intolerance ... but then we have seen a lot of that these days.  Unless one espouses the political correctness of the day, they are excoriated for expressing their opinions.

No, I’m not talking about the fact that the crowd has the opinion that they apparently do (wrong as it may be) ... I’m talking about the fact that they were so intolerant that as soon as the mayor was honest with them they demanded that he leave.  That’s intolerance run a muck ... the mayor had every right to remain if he desired.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 08:54:26 PM »
This will be an interesting experiment. What will happen to cities when they greatly reduce or eliminate the police in their cities. It will be interesting to see if Blacks in those cities will actually be better off. Racial violence by the police is a very serious problem to must be addressed. But whether simply eliminating the police will solve our cities' problems
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 09:03:54 PM »
Trained, experienced police officers are hard to come by. My brother says Fort Wayne is perpetually trying to hire police. If I were a mayor, I’d be sending a delegation up to Minneapolis to see if I could entice some soon to be defunded police officers to move to my city. 

Michael Slusser

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 10:42:56 PM »
Saint Paul police are underfunded, but they do not have the same problems as Minneapolis police. I wish St. Paul would increase its funding for its police, because I trust their leadership and the culture that the department has built up over decades.
I guess I was naive in thinking that.
http://www.fightbacknews.org/2020/1/16/families-and-activists-blast-st-paul-police-department-s-decade-disgrace
    "January 14 marks five years since her nephew, 24-year-old Marcus Golden, was killed by Saint Paul Police Officers Jeremy Doverspike and Dan Peck. He was unarmed when they shot him in the back of the head, through the window of his parked vehicle. Marcus’ murder came in the middle of a decade of disgrace - where Saint Paul distinguished itself as the deadliest department in Minnesota, and one of the deadliest in the country. The rallying cry #Justice4MarcusGolden has fueled Minnesota’s growing movement for accountability in policing and justice for all lives stolen by police violence."

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
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James J Eivan

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 11:45:39 PM »
This will be an interesting experiment. What will happen to cities when they greatly reduce or eliminate the police in their cities. It will be interesting to see if Blacks in those cities will actually be better off. Racial violence by the police is a very serious problem to must be addressed. But whether simply eliminating the police will solve our cities' problems
Perhaps we should watch a similar experiment in Chicago… How many fewer black on black shootings will there be if the Chicago PD is defunded? How many fewer shootings of any kind will there be in Chicago if the PD is defunded?

Perhaps the question should be how much will the murder, burglary, robbery, and criminal mischief rate increase as local PD’s are defunded. 


A popular President one said ‘Speak softly and carry a big stick.’  De arming and defunding the police remove the big stick ... sooner or later the public pays.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2020, 09:57:48 AM »
The proposed move of the Minneapolis City Council to disband the police department has gained national attention and the members on the council committed to doing this are described as "veto proof."  It is unclear just how they will go about it, but it is clear that they will begin soon by defunding and reallocating funds from the department elsewhere.  Their end-goal, however, goes beyond defunding.  They want to recreate community safety from the ground up.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd

I responded to this a day or so ago, but as one who is close to the emergency service world, I am concerned about the naiveté of some proposed reforms.
An alternative safety model, advocates say, can start with finding “non-police solutions to the problems poor people face”, such as counselors responding to mental health calls and addiction experts responding to drug abuse.
Have these people talked to paramedics who respond to "mental health calls" and "drug abuse" calls?  Have they even consulted with the mental health providers as to the relative safety of putting these unprotected people in harm's way?  Do they understand the potential for harm and violence from these types of calls?

Even if they dismantle their department, which they appear committed to doing, the need for policing as they had it will not go away.  Like other experiments in this area they will inevitably end up putting more stress on surrounding departments to make up for what they removed.
Like many US municipalities, Minneapolis was already facing a budget shortfall due to the Covid-19 crisis, and defunding police could help address some of those gaps. There are a handful of examples of governments disbanding troubled local police agencies in the US over the years, though the authorities have had other regional law enforcement entities take over policing.

I understand some of the ideas with the defunding movement in so far as it concerns some reallocation of funds.  And that seems to be where the majority of the county is at right now.  Minneapolis, the epicenter of this swelling protest movement, obviously feels pressure to do something quite radical to show their commitment to ending racial issues in their midst.  But I am afraid that they are reacting and have not invested in serious study of what they want to do.  Crime will not take a holiday while they figure out what might or might not work.  Minneapolis is a sizeable city, and having lived in large cities I can only imagine the crime that must be dealt with on a daily basis; crime that is non-racially based: theft, murder, assault and battery, arson, etc. Do they even realize what signal this may send to the criminal element in their city waiting to take advantage of the chaos? 

I also wonder what it means to "divest" from certain areas such as schools and colleges.
Amid the current protests, abolitionist groups have put forward concrete steps toward dismantling police and prisons, arguing that defunding police is the first move, and that cities need to remove police from schools, repeal laws that “criminalize survival” such as anti-homelessness policies, provide safe housing for people and more. Colleges, public school systems, museums and other institutions have also increasingly announced plans to divest from police.

Violence in public schools, as far as I can see, is not on the decline. My daughter taught on a high school level, and students of this level can be far more intimidating than elementary level students. Some teachers are left quite vulnerable as policies more and more distance themselves from any consequences of misbehavior.  And officers assigned to schools that I have seen seem committed to forming relationships with students that do not involve coercion and force.  Again, I am afraid that by divesting from these areas we only encourage crime, not discourage it. 

I am quite concerned by what I see developing in Minneapolis.  I went to school in its 'twin city' St. Paul in the 80s and even then crime was quite evident. I hope someone is really thinking things through. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 10:01:47 AM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

James J Eivan

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2020, 10:32:06 AM »
While the Minneapolis mayor apparently does not have a security detail, many politicians hypocritically have armed security details while 'supporting' the defund the police movement.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2020, 01:17:52 PM »
"Do you understand that the word, dismantle, or police-free also makes some people nervous, for instance?" Camerota asked. "What if in the middle of [the] night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?"

Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender:  "I mean, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors," Bender said. "And I know -- and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege. Because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may mean more harm is done."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-council-president-ducks-question-over-how-defund-police-push-would-affect-crime-victims
Don Kirchner

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D. Engebretson

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2020, 02:39:47 PM »
Minneapolis is yet to provide any details of what a new law enforcement system may look like, although Bender conceded there will still be a police department in the short term. She said, however, that most 911 calls are related to medical emergencies and mental health problems, which will be prioritized in funding.

In practice, this will probably involve diverting police funding to treatment services such as mental health counselors and drug addiction experts. While a smaller police force may remain, it won’t be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis.

The Guardian

So they aren't going to get rid of the police department altogether.  That's good to hear. Somewhat. Not sure how "small" is "small." But I wonder what it means that they "won't be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis."  How do they define "crisis"?  So if there is a domestic disturbance that involves violence and maybe even a weapon, they call a social worker first? And then the social worker makes an assessment and calls in for backup?  If there is a gang-related event in downtown they call the social worker first to make sure that the youth are properly assessed before calling in the police? 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2020, 02:53:07 PM »
"Do you understand that the word, dismantle, or police-free also makes some people nervous, for instance?" Camerota asked. "What if in the middle of [the] night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?"

Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender:  "I mean, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors," Bender said. "And I know -- and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege. Because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may mean more harm is done."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-council-president-ducks-question-over-how-defund-police-push-would-affect-crime-victims
Being able to breathe enough to answer the question comes from a place of privilege, too; not everyone enjoys clean air and good health, often through no fault of their own. The goal, obviously, should be to extend the privilege as much as possible, not take it away from those who have it.