Author Topic: Defunding the Police  (Read 9392 times)

Robert Johnson

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2020, 07:43:38 PM »
Only time will tell, but I fear that the backlash from the "Defund the Police" movement will be an unfortunate exodus of very good law enforcement officers from this necessary area of community defense.

In every organization that is under pressure, the very best people are the ones who can most easily find alternative opportunities.  It is almost certain (with of course some exceptions) that when people leave the best leave and the worst remain.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2020, 01:36:54 PM »
James:
It is beyond belief that property destruction can be defended and excused by allegedly God fearing Americans 
Me:
Not at all “beyond belief.”
...
Rioting, as they say and as our history proves, is “as American as apple pie” and sometimes the only way to get a just cause addressed by those in power.

"Please, show me where it says that protests are supposed to be polite and peaceful," [Chris Cuomo] said. "Because I can show you that outraged citizens are what made the country what she is and led to any major milestone. To be honest, this is not a tranquil time."

Birds of a feather ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-zb58uiFjU
Don Kirchner

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D. Engebretson

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2020, 08:59:01 AM »
The city council has passed a budget that cuts $1 billion from the New York  City Police Department.

USA Today:
New York City will take $1 billion from police budget, but many say it doesn't go far enough

As calls to defund the police grow louder around the country, New York City officials agreed on a budget that shifts roughly $1 billion from the police department, but advocates and lawmakers say the change doesn't go far enough.

The city council said in a statement Tuesday that the city's 2021 budget, totaling more than $88 billion, "reduces police spending and shrinks NYPD's footprint." The cuts came as the city is grappling with losing $9 billion in revenue amid the coronavirus pandemic.

The budget cuts nearly $484 million from the NYPD's annual $6 billion budget and shifts funding to other agencies as well as youth and social services programming.

The changes will cancel a nearly 1,200-person police recruiting class set for next month (though another class in October is scheduled to go forward), curtail overtime spending and shift school safety, crossing guards and homeless outreach away from the NYPD.


But apparently Governor Cuomo isn't pleased with it. 
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/07/01/cuomo-favors-rethinking-police-departments-over-budget-cuts

Governor Cuomo made clear Wednesday that he doesn’t believe the city’s $1 billion change to the NYPD budget comes close to solving the deep-rooted issues at hand.

“Well, we took money from them," he said. "Well, what does that do? The problem is bigger than that. The problem is worse than that. There is no respect and trust between the community and the police.”

His lengthy and impassioned call for change was accompanied at his Manhattan event by an impromptu imagining of a stakeholders’ conversation on reform.

“Sit down at the table. Bring the NYPD, bring the community activists, bring the council, bring all the politicians," he said, then taking a notepad: "Start with a blank piece of paper. We want to design the NYPD. Any questions? Yeah, yeah, I have a question. What?”

Mayor de Blasio announced what he described as a $1 billion slashing of NYPD coffers, but Speaker Corey Johnson and other lawmakers questioned the math.

And protesters called it smoke and mirrors.


As the New York Times titled its article:
Nearly $1 Billion Is Shifted From Police in Budget That Pleases No One
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

James J Eivan

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2020, 09:10:16 AM »
Actually reported by the NY Times

Gun Violence Spikes in N.Y.C., Intensifying Debate Over Policing


The best way to address a murderous crime wave is to defund the police. One wonders of the victim's families agree.

Charles Austin

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2020, 09:31:17 AM »
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. It is now clear that the election of 2020 was not stolen. But we see now how it was nearly stolen after the balloting. Some of our top officials assisted by corrupt lawyers, attempted to steal the electoral college. Some true patriots saved us.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2020, 10:01:37 AM »
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.
The root cause of crime is human nature. It dehumanizes people by removing moral agency from them to say their behaviors aren't traceable to themselves.

DeHall1

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2020, 10:05:37 AM »
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.

In your world, do the police often "shoot the alleged perpetrators"?   Do you, personally, know any police officers?  Do the police officers you know arbitrarily shoot people? 

Do the police officers you know know that this is what you think they do?

James_Gale

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2020, 10:17:47 AM »
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.


One might wonder all sorts of things.  One might do many things beyond just policing.  But the price of the approach you seem to support is being paid in the blood of scores of innocent people, most of whom are black. 

James J Eivan

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2020, 10:21:15 AM »

One might wonder all sorts of things.  One might do many things beyond just policing.  But the price of the approach you seem to support is being paid in the blood of scores of innocent people, most of whom are black. 
Also the blood of innocent police officers....Tulsa police officer killed after unsuccessfully attempting to taser a defiant perp.

"The encounter escalated from there before one of the officers tried to tase Ware. He was able to pull out the taser prongs, however, and continued to be belligerent. One of the officers then used pepper spray to subdue him, but Ware remained defiant."


A wife and children no longer have a spouse and father because deesculation failed went a citizen refused to follow lawful police instructions.

The Yak

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2020, 10:55:33 AM »
The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago: "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP: "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now. 

Just in Atlanta, NYC, and Chicago alone (I can't find the MSP data for actual number of deaths), 79 more people have been killed in June 2020 than in June 2019, and the murder rate shows no sign of abating.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 11:11:38 AM by The Yak »
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Jim Butler

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2020, 11:09:57 AM »
The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago: "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP: "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now.

I think this comes under "Be careful what you wish for. You might get it."
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

D. Engebretson

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2020, 11:56:25 AM »
The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago: "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP: "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now. 

Just in Atlanta, NYC, and Chicago alone (I can't find the MSP data for actual number of deaths), 79 more people have been killed in June 2020 than in June 2019, and the murder rate shows no sign of abating.

This was my fear from the beginning of the "defund the police" movement.  I am sorry that my fears are being realized.  People will suffer unnecessarily.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2020, 01:39:27 PM »
One might wonder whether the better reaction should be to fund a look at the root causes of crime rather than just step up the fire power used to shoot the alleged perpetrators.
The root cause of crime is human nature. It dehumanizes people by removing moral agency from them to say their behaviors aren't traceable to themselves.


1 Timothy 6:10 says that the root of evil is ἡ φιλαργυρία: "loving silver" or "loving money" or "loving wealth" or "greedy."


While this is the only place this particular word is used, closely related words occur elsewhere:


φιλάργυρος of Pharisees in Luke 16:14; and of people in general in 2 Timothy 3:2.


It is not incurable. The negation of these words, ἀφιλάργυρος, is used of bishops in 1 Timothy 3:3; and a counsel to all believers in Hebrews 13:5.



"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James J Eivan

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2020, 02:55:31 PM »

The effects of being hostile towards and working against police departments are now being felt.  On another thread, I had linked a study showing that after "viral" instances of police misconduct where the community became hostile toward the police, many more lives were lost (for 3 "viral" incidents, over 900 additional people were killed per the study).  This is not the case when police misconduct is identified and addressed in partnership with the police.  In those cases, the study indicated that violence decreased in the community.

In any case, in Chicago: "Shootings across the city increased by 75% last month alone, with 424 shootings in June 2020 compared to 242 in June 2019, according to police statistics. Murders in Chicago rose by 78%, with 89 reported in June 2020 compared to 50 in the same month last year."

In MSP: "St. Paul Police records show the number of shots fired is up nearly 130%, injuries from gunshots are up 78% and homicides are up 50% compared to this same time a year ago."

In NYC, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared to the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 48%; 2) Shooting victims are up 101%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 86%.

In Atlanta, for the 28 days prior to 6/21/2020 and compared the the same time period in 2019: 1) Murders are up 133%; 2) Shooting victims are up 104%; and 3) Shooting incidents are up 94%.

Calls to defund and/or abolish the police made in such a hostile environment toward them are deadly.  Those who make them contribute to the atmosphere that is now resulting in the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people, many black, right now. 

Just in Atlanta, NYC, and Chicago alone (I can't find the MSP data for actual number of deaths), 79 more people have been killed in June 2020 than in June 2019, and the murder rate shows no sign of abating.

This was my fear from the beginning of the "defund the police" movement.  I am sorry that my fears are being realized.  People will suffer unnecessarily.
As if things could not get worse ...

Virginia Democrats draft proposal to downgrade assault on police to misdemeanor

D. Engebretson

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Re: Defunding the Police
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2020, 10:17:40 AM »
Every day I get a summary of news stories from the New York Times via email.  This was one of the headlines and summaries for today:

Seeking ‘good police’ in Minneapolis

The Minneapolis City Council pledged to drastically scale back the size and scope of the city’s police force after the killing of George Floyd. But residents of Minneapolis’s majority-Black North Side have mixed feelings about that effort — and about the wider push to defund the police by redirecting their resources to struggling communities.

Many North Side residents dislike the police but rely on them to respond to crime, and most say they prefer reforms like improved police training to defunding. Some have also accused elected officials of ignoring their views. As one resident told The Times’s John Eligon: “It’s good to have good police. It’s bad to have bad police.”
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI