Author Topic: Fixing systemic racism  (Read 23981 times)

Matt Hummel

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2020, 07:53:42 PM »
This is by no means a major part of the issue, but St. Theresa of Kolkata has some words of wisdom: “If we accept that a mother can kill her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill each other? Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, rather, to use violence to get what they want.”


Any country that prohibits women from making her own choices about her own body is not teaching its people to be responsible, to love themselves; but rather uses legal means to get what they want. This is getting into sexism, which would be a different topic.

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Again, this is NOT the only issue. But any discussion of a fix that does not reckon with this is doomed to failure.


Agree. We need to promote the worthiness of all human beings: blacks, whites, males, females, children, oldsters. To say that only the child in the womb has rights is to deny rights to the woman suffering with an unwanted pregnancy.

The woman has rights too Brian. But every human person has the fundamental right to life. Your problem is your absolute and complete ignorance of high school biology.


Actually, I had As in every biology class I took: high school and college. At the LCMS college I had the highest or second highest grade in the class.
So you brag that you are the tallest midget at the Circus. Your point?

I have watch you mangle and misinterpret the natural sciences for well over a decade. The fact that you do not understand that an individual human life begins at conception shows woefful ignorance. The fact that if you accept that truth and still claim abortion, the taking of an innocent human life, is a moral good, shows that you, to use person first language, are a person with a moral disability.
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2020, 08:55:04 PM »
though he emphasized the need to address the breakdown of the family which I gathered wasn't a very popular opinion. 


He is not alone, though.  The speaker for the 40th Annual Martin Luther King, Jr. Commemoration Service earlier this year -- it's sponsored by the Alton, Illinois, branch of the NAACP -- was James Clark, Vice-President of Community Outreach for Better Family Life of Missouri, which is just across the rivers from us in St. Louis.  Mr. Clark delivered that same message to us, one he emphasizes in the agency, particularly lifting up the necessity of fathers in the lives of the children of the community and their mothers.  That message was well-received by the full house.

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James J Eivan

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2020, 09:28:28 PM »
His name needs to be restored and moved forward
Has something been missed ... perhaps lost in all the needless snark,  but hasn't the slate been cleared ... hasn't there been a call for an entirely new nomination list for CSL President?  If so, it would seem that calling for a name to be "restored and moved forward" rather self-serving and needless.


Dr Benke and/or his congregation is more than free to nominate anyone who meets the bylaw qualifications.


As one who regularly eschews the use of lists during convention time, it seems as though Dr Benke's comment above is functioning as a campaigning for a list of one ... while the source of the list is not anonymous,  it is a list no less.


As said previously,  I have no dog in this hunt other than that the selection of the next CSL President not repeat the error of John Tietjen in 1969.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 11:49:20 PM by James »

James_Gale

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2020, 09:55:07 PM »
His name needs to be restored and moved forward
Has something has been missed ... perhaps lost in all the needless snark,  but hasn't the slate been cleared ... hasn't there been a call for an entirely new nomination list for CSL President?  If so, it would seem that calling for a name to be "restored and moved forward" rather self-serving and needless.


Dr Benke and/or his congregation is more than free to nominate anyone who meets the bylaw qualifications.


As one who regularly eschews the use of lists during convention time, it seems as though Dr Benke's comment above is functioning as a campaigning for a list of one ... while the source of the list is not anonymous,  it is a list no less.


As said previously,  I have no dog in this hunt other than that the selection of the next CSL President not repeat the error of John Tietjen in 1969.


I can’t imagine anyone wanting to see the LCMS repeat the errors that it made in dealing with the late Pr. Tietjen. 

James J Eivan

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2020, 10:10:00 PM »
His name needs to be restored and moved forward
Has something has been missed ... perhaps lost in all the needless snark,  but hasn't the slate been cleared ... hasn't there been a call for an entirely new nomination list for CSL President?  If so, it would seem that calling for a name to be "restored and moved forward" rather self-serving and needless.

Dr Benke and/or his congregation is more than free to nominate anyone who meets the bylaw qualifications.

As one who regularly eschews the use of lists during convention time, it seems as though Dr Benke's comment above is functioning as a campaigning for a list of one ... while the source of the list is not anonymous,  it is a list no less.

As said previously,  I have no dog in this hunt other than that the selection of the next CSL President not repeat the error of John Tietjen in 1969.
I can’t imagine anyone wanting to see the LCMS repeat the errors that it made in dealing with the late Pr. Tietjen. 
My bad for not clearly stating that the error was electing John Tietjen to the presidency of CSL.

passerby

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2020, 10:29:57 PM »
I think it might help to define what we mean by "systemic racism."  I believe it can also be called "institutional racism." So, I assume, we will be addressing how racism impacts institutions and groups, including, but not exclusive of law enforcement. 

Fixing much of this requires changes in structures that are often well above us.  We can vote in people we think will help influence this, but I'm not sure, short of holding a significant political position or office, that we can directly influence racism at this level. However, I realize many will say that organized mass protests help to influence change.  If that is the case we have to get a handle on those who are high jacking this form of expression.  Right now the waters are being muddied by fringe groups intent on injecting violence, destruction and mayhem into these gatherings. 

Churches, being institutions, certainly lie closer to our area of influence.  I live in a fairly homogeneous community, so I'm probably not the person to offer a lot of firsthand observations and suggestions.  That said, I think it is clear that the attitude of the pastor certainly helps to influence the overall attitude of a parish.

On the matter of systemic racism, I'm quoting a sociologist and journalist from Facebook (I don't have permission to use his name):
Systems and institutions are not unitary but often quite divided: racism here; equality there.Systemic racism doesn't mean the whole system is racist. It means that it is an element in the system, because systems are quite complex culture-wise and institution wise. Racism is just one element in the system. The egalitarian dna is there also. Otherwise, we can't explain most American history. We end up having to say every democratic advance in American history is an illusion, used by racists in a cunning scheme to keep African Americans down. Same with identity systems. "

Tom Eckstein

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2020, 11:22:43 PM »
First of all, you are engaging in racist anachronism at its finest if you are suggesting that this text condones the slavery we had in the U.S.


It is a text that was used by slave owners to support owning African slaves.

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Second, this is a descriptive text showing that the descendants of Ham would be subject to others in some way, but it doesn't specify how nor does it condone it or say that it should be permanent throughout history.


It was used in support of slavery in the U.S.

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Finally, the New Testament is clear that the kind of slavery practiced in the Roman Empire is condemned.  (In the OT, slavery for criminals or prisoners of war was allowed as well as indentured service for Israelites, but unjust slavery of the innocent was NEVER condoned in the OT or NT nor was it ever based on skin color!)


Where do you read condemnation of Roman slavery in the NT?


While slavery because of skin color was not present, slavery because of one's race was, e.g., non-Israelite could be slaves of Israelites. According to 1 Kings 9:15-22 Solomon used non-Israelites as forced laborers to build the temple and his palace.

The article on slavery in The New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible begins by saying: "Previous scholars relied on law exclusively for their understanding of ancient slavery. This methodological mistake mistreats the ancient evidence. A better approach defines the phenomenon comparatively, on the level of personal relations, and without exclusive reference to property ownership. Slavery is not simply owning a human being as property (chattel), the equivalent of forced labor; the denial of civil rights, or the loss of freedom. Its distinctiveness lies in the permanent and violent domination of persons alienated from birth who live in a general state of dishonor. This preliminary definition from historical sociology offers a useful model of slavery as 'social death.'" (volume 5, p. 299)

I would venture to suggest that racism continues the idea keeping people "in a general state of dishonor." We combat that by bringing honor to those who do not have it.

Just because some used Gen. 9:24-27 to condone the slavery of black people does NOT mean they were properly interpreting that passage.  There is NOTHING in this text that teaches that God wanted people with dark skin to be slaves throughout the rest of human history!

Of course, Brian, if you really believe this text DOES teach this, then why don't you condone the slavery of black people?  If your response is that this curse no longer applies or that the NT somehow shows that this curse has been abrogated, then you agree with me (but not for the exact same reasons) that the Bible does NOT condone the slavery of black people.  But if your response is that you don't care what Scripture says even if Genesis 9:24-27 still applies, then you show that you are rebelling against the will of God.

If you read the books I linked in my previous post, you will see that in the OT God only regulated certain types of slavery, that is, that of criminals or prisoners of war - but innocent aliens were NOT to be enslaved!  As for fellow Israelites, only indentured service was allowed and this is NOT what we had in the American South!  As for the NT times, even though the NT does not explicitly condemn the Roman slave class system (although 1st Timothy 1:10 appears to do just that!), it implicitly does!  Again, the way Paul taught about Master/Slave relationships was totally counter-cultural and a serious study of both the OT and NT shows that the type of slavery we had in the American South cannot be justified at all - and those who read Scripture as though it DID clearly misunderstood what Scripture actually taught about slavery, just as you do with your erroneous view of Genesis 9:24-27.

Again, Brian, read the books I suggested and get some education about this issue.  Below is a brief article that should clarify things for you, but read the books I mentioned for more thorough information.

https://www.rzim.org/listen/ask-away/does-the-bible-condone-slavery
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 11:33:24 PM by Tom Eckstein »
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2020, 02:25:57 AM »
This is by no means a major part of the issue, but St. Theresa of Kolkata has some words of wisdom: “If we accept that a mother can kill her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill each other? Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, rather, to use violence to get what they want.”


Any country that prohibits women from making her own choices about her own body is not teaching its people to be responsible, to love themselves; but rather uses legal means to get what they want. This is getting into sexism, which would be a different topic.

Quote
Again, this is NOT the only issue. But any discussion of a fix that does not reckon with this is doomed to failure.


Agree. We need to promote the worthiness of all human beings: blacks, whites, males, females, children, oldsters. To say that only the child in the womb has rights is to deny rights to the woman suffering with an unwanted pregnancy.

The woman has rights too Brian. But every human person has the fundamental right to life. Your problem is your absolute and complete ignorance of high school biology.


Actually, I had As in every biology class I took: high school and college. At the LCMS college I had the highest or second highest grade in the class.
So you brag that you are the tallest midget at the Circus. Your point?

I have watch you mangle and misinterpret the natural sciences for well over a decade. The fact that you do not understand that an individual human life begins at conception shows woefful ignorance. The fact that if you accept that truth and still claim abortion, the taking of an innocent human life, is a moral good, shows that you, to use person first language, are a person with a moral disability.


Abortion is not the topic of this discussion.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Matt Hummel

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2020, 03:00:05 AM »
Brian- abortion is the largest killer of Black Americans. Orders of magnitude higher than police violence. More blacks are killed in one year by abortion than were lynched during the entirety of the Jim Crow era.  Planned Parenthood is an organization started by White Supremacists.

If abortion is not part of your discussion on fixing systemic racism, it is because you are immoral and cowardly. Or a fool. But not for Christ.
Matt Hummel


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― J.R.R. Tolkien

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2020, 03:37:50 AM »
Just because some used Gen. 9:24-27 to condone the slavery of black people does NOT mean they were properly interpreting that passage.  There is NOTHING in this text that teaches that God wanted people with dark skin to be slaves throughout the rest of human history!


I never said that I agreed with their interpretation. I've stated that it has been used as a biblical argument for slavery, and specifically of African people who were the majority of the children of Ham. It should also be noted that this is NOT a curse from God, but one uttered by Noah.

Quote
Of course, Brian, if you really believe this text DOES teach this, then why don't you condone the slavery of black people?  If your response is that this curse no longer applies or that the NT somehow shows that this curse has been abrogated, then you agree with me (but not for the exact same reasons) that the Bible does NOT condone the slavery of black people.  But if your response is that you don't care what Scripture says even if Genesis 9:24-27 still applies, then you show that you are rebelling against the will of God.


As I noted above, those who wanted to use Noah's curse argued that most of Ham's descendants were Africans.

Quote
If you read the books I linked in my previous post, you will see that in the OT God only regulated certain types of slavery, that is, that of criminals or prisoners of war - but innocent aliens were NOT to be enslaved!  As for fellow Israelites, only indentured service was allowed and this is NOT what we had in the American South!  As for the NT times, even though the NT does not explicitly condemn the Roman slave class system (although 1st Timothy 1:10 appears to do just that!), it implicitly does!  Again, the way Paul taught about Master/Slave relationships was totally counter-cultural and a serious study of both the OT and NT shows that the type of slavery we had in the American South cannot be justified at all - and those who read Scripture as though it DID clearly misunderstood what Scripture actually taught about slavery, just as you do with your erroneous view of Genesis 9:24-27.


The point is that Israelites had slaves. It is never condemned by God. They were not to be treated as harshly as the Israelites were treated as slaves in Egypt. Among the Christians, the fact that Paul gives instructions to masters and slaves indicates that some believers had slaves while others were slaves. Again, there are no commands against slavery; but instructions about how masters are to treat slaves and how slaves are to treat their masters - even those that might not be so loving (1 Peter 2:18.


I have no idea what you mean by referring to 1 Timothy 1:10.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2020, 03:44:22 AM »
Brian- abortion is the largest killer of Black Americans. Orders of magnitude higher than police violence. More blacks are killed in one year by abortion than were lynched during the entirety of the Jim Crow era.  Planned Parenthood is an organization started by White Supremacists.

If abortion is not part of your discussion on fixing systemic racism, it is because you are immoral and cowardly. Or a fool. But not for Christ.


By making abortion the problem you fail to see through the eyes of those who see it as the solution to their problem you'll never fully understand the issue. Unwanted pregnancies are the problem. The higher unemployment rate among blacks; the lower salaries among working blacks; the lack of insurance among blacks; increases the likelihood that pregnancies (another mouth to feed) will be unwanted. Let's work together on the problem of unwanted pregnancies and the reasons children are unwanted. Once that problem is solved, there will be almost no abortions - and none outside of the reasons given in our ELCA Statement when abortion may be a responsible choice.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2020, 06:27:23 AM »
Remember back when one of the arguments for making abortion readily available was that it would all but eliminate child abuse? "Every child a wanted child" was the slogan. Abortion became much more readily available, has child abuse all but disappeared?


By your argument, abortion should be virtually nonexistent among middle class and affluent Americans. Has that happened? I will say, however, that abortion as part of the solution for poverty is quite Swiftian. It would work even better if the exmothers could be let in on a cut of the profits gained from the harvesting of  medical and biological  materials from the aborted fetuses.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 08:19:16 AM by Dan Fienen »
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Matt Hummel

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2020, 07:09:55 AM »
Brian- I weep for my former denomination when I realize a cold hearted racist such as yourself is considered to be an exemplum of its clergy. For the sake of your soul- admit the truth that you really actually are pro-abortion. And repent.

I never made abortion the issue in this discussion. I said it was part of the discussion. But the very fact that you reflexively go to get it off the table says volumes. That, and your fetishizing of the ELCA  Social Statement. I find your position fascinating as someone who has been trained in postabortive trauma. It affects men as well as women. Help is available. Where ever you live, look at the Catholic diocesan webpage. Resources will be lifted under Respect Life or Pro-Life tabs.
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― J.R.R. Tolkien

Buckeye Deaconess

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2020, 07:14:08 AM »
though he emphasized the need to address the breakdown of the family which I gathered wasn't a very popular opinion. 


He is not alone, though.  The speaker for the 40th Annual Martin Luther King, Jr. Commemoration Service earlier this year -- it's sponsored by the Alton, Illinois, branch of the NAACP -- was James Clark, Vice-President of Community Outreach for Better Family Life of Missouri, which is just across the rivers from us in St. Louis.  Mr. Clark delivered that same message to us, one he emphasizes in the agency, particularly lifting up the necessity of fathers in the lives of the children of the community and their mothers.  That message was well-received by the full house.

Pax, Steven+

Exactly!  I am actually participating in a local effort to promote in-tact families, and James is a part of that group.  Some info. on the group's work can be found here and here.  Let me know if you're interested in coming across the river to participate!  Meetings are held at the Society of St. Vincent de Paul not too far from downtown St. Louis.  COVID-19 has kept us from meeting in recent weeks, but I suspect they'll be getting started soon.

RandyBosch

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Re: Fixing systemic racism
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2020, 09:22:28 AM »
Brian- abortion is the largest killer of Black Americans. Orders of magnitude higher than police violence. More blacks are killed in one year by abortion than were lynched during the entirety of the Jim Crow era.  Planned Parenthood is an organization started by White Supremacists.

If abortion is not part of your discussion on fixing systemic racism, it is because you are immoral and cowardly. Or a fool. But not for Christ.


By making abortion the problem you fail to see through the eyes of those who see it as the solution to their problem you'll never fully understand the issue. Unwanted pregnancies are the problem. The higher unemployment rate among blacks; the lower salaries among working blacks; the lack of insurance among blacks; increases the likelihood that pregnancies (another mouth to feed) will be unwanted. Let's work together on the problem of unwanted pregnancies and the reasons children are unwanted. Once that problem is solved, there will be almost no abortions - and none outside of the reasons given in our ELCA Statement when abortion may be a responsible choice.

Perhaps this discussion would benefit from a better understanding of what "systemic" actually means and how it manifests itself...