Author Topic: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......  (Read 39180 times)

David Garner

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #135 on: June 01, 2020, 10:51:07 AM »
St. Patrick's Cathedral vandalized.  Also the historic St. John's Episcopal church in DC was set on fire.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA

https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html

Of course, we should expect that the church will be caught in the middle of the violence and mayhem. It is sad, however, to see places of worship desecrated.  Peaceful protestors would not do this.  It does not serve any positive purpose. 

One of the marks of graffiti on St. Patrick's says: "No justice, no peace."  I understand what it means, in a basic way.  But is the call for instant justice, then peace?  According to these protestors are we to suspect the normal means of jurisprudence and simply convict and punish these people?  Or is it that justice was be of the most extreme nature for justice to be served?  Unfortunately graffiti does not answer what they are calling for.  So what has to happen for peace to be granted?

In the case of St. John's, I'm guessing the ECUSA supports criminal justice reform and the prosecution of those who killed George Floyd.  They are certainly on board with all manner of leftist political aims.  But they are Christians, however tepidly, and so they are marked for destruction with the rest.

You can never cowtow enough to please these folks.  If this doesn't give the ECUSA a spine, I'm honestly not sure what will.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Michael Slusser

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #136 on: June 01, 2020, 10:58:38 AM »
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #137 on: June 01, 2020, 11:12:08 AM »
There was a group of protesters (I'd estimate around 60-75) standing on the corner of the Lincoln County Courthouse yesterday (Sunday) in North Platte NE.  Many were African, some were white, some were police.  They were peaceful, and they were causing no trouble.  I was hauling a load of landscape block in the back of the pickup as we are landscaping around the barn we've been building, and I was impressed and thankful that they were lawful in their protest, and then included a prayer for their message and mission.  I observed them engaging in civil discourse and conversation with a few passersby.  https://www.nptelegraph.com/news/watch-now-demonstrators-call-for-change-at-black-lives-matter-protest-in-north-platte/article_a77e3f24-a37d-11ea-b31f-57b1509ba43f.html

Oh that it were like this around the nation.
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David Garner

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #138 on: June 01, 2020, 11:15:59 AM »
There was a group of protesters (I'd estimate around 60-75) standing on the corner of the Lincoln County Courthouse yesterday (Sunday) in North Platte NE.  Many were African, some were white, some were police.  They were peaceful, and they were causing no trouble.  I was hauling a load of landscape block in the back of the pickup as we are landscaping around the barn we've been building, and I was impressed and thankful that they were lawful in their protest, and then included a prayer for their message and mission.  I observed them engaging in civil discourse and conversation with a few passersby.  https://www.nptelegraph.com/news/watch-now-demonstrators-call-for-change-at-black-lives-matter-protest-in-north-platte/article_a77e3f24-a37d-11ea-b31f-57b1509ba43f.html

Oh that it were like this around the nation.

Police joining the peaceful protests is one of the greatest things I've seen come out of this.  I've said a million times that until "good cops" start denouncing "bad cops," we won't see an end to either police brutality or the rage that it elicits in our communities.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that most of the violence and looting is opportunistic and organized rather than the result of black Americans acting out.  I also denounce the soft bigotry of low expectations.  Supporting the message and mission of those peacefully protesting is one of the best things we can do at this time.
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mariemeyer

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #139 on: June 01, 2020, 11:31:57 AM »
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.


"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael

Fr. Slusser:

Thank you for alerting us to this essay.  After reading the reflections I will be passing them on to my children and adult grandchildren.

Your sister in Christ,

Marie Meyer
P.S.  I grew up in the Bronx. My Lutheran parochial school 7th and 8th grade teacher was working on his doctorate in philosophy from Fordham University. He influenced my life in many ways including the decision to become a Lutheran parish deaconess. I subsequently served an LCMS parish in downtown Milwaukee.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #140 on: June 01, 2020, 11:38:13 AM »
Police joining the peaceful protests is one of the greatest things I've seen come out of this.  I've said a million times that until "good cops" start denouncing "bad cops," we won't see an end to either police brutality or the rage that it elicits in our communities.

As with any organization that has strong, internal bonds, law enforcement is not immune to the temptation to cover for those who stray from the organization's purpose and ethics.  I believe that law enforcement is truly a First Article gift in the spirit of Romans 13, but they, too, are sinners who must often be called to repentance along with the rest of us. They can inflict unjust violence under the cover of a badge as easily as rioters do so under the cover of a mask.  I have no way of knowing just how systemic internal corruption may be within the ranks of law enforcement nationwide.  I do not want to see "good cops" targeted just because they are "cops."  I want to see law enforcement viewed by the public as a force for good, for their protection.  How the necessary reforms must begin, I'm not sure.  But to do so is necessary if honor and respect are to be restored overall. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #141 on: June 01, 2020, 12:35:14 PM »
Today’s New York Times (but I will Bet  Certain folks here won’t say this story is skewed and false.)
President Trump lashed out at America’s governors on Monday, warning that they will look like “jerks” if they don’t order protesters arrested and imprisoned.
Speaking on a private conference call, audio of which was obtained by The New York Times,  Mr. Trump began the conversation with an extended, angry diatribe.
“You have to dominate,” he told governors on the call. “If you don’t dominate, you’re wasting your time — they’re going to run over you, you’re going to look like a bunch of jerks.”
The president continued: “You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.”
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.
Alluding to television footage of violence and looting, Mr. Trump called the people committing those acts “scum” and demanded of the governors: “Why aren’t you prosecuting them?” Taking over a call that was supposed to feature Vice President Mike Pence, the president said Minnesota had become “a laughingstock all over the world.”

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Richard Johnson

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #142 on: June 01, 2020, 12:52:50 PM »
There was a group of protesters (I'd estimate around 60-75) standing on the corner of the Lincoln County Courthouse yesterday (Sunday) in North Platte NE.  Many were African, some were white, some were police. 

How many Africans are there in Nebraska?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #143 on: June 01, 2020, 12:57:01 PM »
And were the police protesting?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

John_Hannah

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #144 on: June 01, 2020, 01:50:29 PM »
A priest friend of mine finally got me to read a reflection by another priest friend of mine, who came from Milwaukee but now teaches in the Bronx at Fordham, Fr. Bryan Massingale:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/assumptions-white-privilege-and-what-we-can-do-about-it
It's a longish essay, but it addresses many of the questions and concerns that have been raised on this Forum as well as in the media. He speaks to what people can do--including the churches, especially the RCC--and includes the essential role of prayer.
     Here is a sample from early in the essay: "First, understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being threatened. There is no way to tell the truth about race in this country without white people becoming uncomfortable. Because the plain truth is that if it were up to people of color, racism would have been resolved, over and done, a long time ago. The only reason for racism's persistence is that white people continue to benefit from it.

"Repeat that last sentence. Make it your mantra. Because until the country accepts that truth, we will never move beyond superficial words and ineffective half-measures."

Peace,
Michael

Thanks, Michael. An excellent essay; penetrating and accurate. It is going to be difficult to correct all the Ms. Coopers of this nation. It is not unlike the challenge of correcting the assumptions of all the pro-choice people. Fr. Massingale is right to couple racism and abortion.

Peace, JOHN

PS:  Many good people (like Fr. Massingale) live in the Bronx.   ;D
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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2020, 01:55:31 PM »
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) this plays out. U.S. law sharply restricts employing U.S. forces against civilians, even for law enforcement. Witness the very limited role they play in border enforcement.

Peace, JOHN
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #146 on: June 01, 2020, 02:18:45 PM »
It will not play out, unless the people in the White House who are only semi-crazed cannot properly inform or convince the president that his suggestion is against the law. Then it will be up to the military to say to him that they are not allowed to do this kind of thing.
And he’ll probably try to fire the generals so he can find one that will do his bidding.
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Daniel Lee Gard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #147 on: June 01, 2020, 02:45:16 PM »
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) this plays out. U.S. law sharply restricts employing U.S. forces against civilians, even for law enforcement. Witness the very limited role they play in border enforcement.

Peace, JOHN

It would seem that the issue is whether they are under federal or State authority. Federal troops (active and reserve components) are one thing. National Guard is another - if the Guard is mobilized by the President, they become federal troops and subject to the same limitations as active and reserve. However, if they are mobilized by the Governor, they can be used for a wide variety of civil events. When I was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve HQ in New Orleans, we got hit by Katrina. My Marines could do nothing. The Louisiana National Guard was mobilized by the Governor and began to patrol to keep the peace as well as to assist in recovery. Of course, Marines will be Marines and they figured that they could do the job better than the Guard!

I also note that the Army has a large part of its Military Police forces in the National Guard. During my time (as well as before and after my time) at Guantanamo Bay, the guard force was entirely National Guard under Presidential recall. I suppose that these are the best trained soldiers for civil disturbances.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 02:50:15 PM by Daniel Lee Gard »

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2020, 03:22:17 PM »
Mr. Trump, who has not addressed the nation since the unrest began, said he was putting   Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “in charge,” but did not immediately specify what that meant or if he would deploy the military to quell the violence in the nation’s cities.
“He hates to see the way it’s being handled in the various states,” Mr. Trump said of General Milley.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) this plays out. U.S. law sharply restricts employing U.S. forces against civilians, even for law enforcement. Witness the very limited role they play in border enforcement.

Peace, JOHN

It would seem that the issue is whether they are under federal or State authority. Federal troops (active and reserve components) are one thing. National Guard is another - if the Guard is mobilized by the President, they become federal troops and subject to the same limitations as active and reserve. However, if they are mobilized by the Governor, they can be used for a wide variety of civil events. When I was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve HQ in New Orleans, we got hit by Katrina. My Marines could do nothing. The Louisiana National Guard was mobilized by the Governor and began to patrol to keep the peace as well as to assist in recovery. Of course, Marines will be Marines and they figured that they could do the job better than the Guard!

I also note that the Army has a large part of its Military Police forces in the National Guard. During my time (as well as before and after my time) at Guantanamo Bay, the guard force was entirely National Guard under Presidential recall. I suppose that these are the best trained soldiers for civil disturbances.

You are correct, of course. The law (Posse Comitatus) applies only to federal forces and not the Guard under the governor''s command. General Milley is not part of the National Guard so cannot have anything to do with civil law enforcement. Many governors have activated their Guard units and they are working effectively to quell the lawlessness and riots. The governors are correct. The Minnesota governor is already standing down part of his National Guard force.

Peace, JOHN
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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #149 on: June 01, 2020, 03:33:33 PM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex-cop-charged-in-george-floyd-death-moved-twice-in-same-day/ar-BB14SlhP?li=BBnb7Kz

"During a press conference Sunday night, Commissioner of Corrections Paul Schnell said that Chauvin has been moved partially due to COVID-19 concerns, especially considering the number of protesters who had already been arrested on Sunday."

And the other reason(s)? Oak Park Height**  is the biggy, the most secure DOC facility in MN. I suspect that they're trying to keep Derek Chauvin alive. For awhile anyway ...

**"Minnesota Correctional Facility – Oak Park Heights is Minnesota's only Level Five maximum security prison. The facility is located near the cities of Bayport and Stillwater. The facility is designed and employed with trained security officers to handle not only Minnesota's high-risk inmates but other states' as well."
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 03:42:45 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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