Author Topic: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......  (Read 39056 times)

Daniel Lee Gard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #165 on: June 01, 2020, 07:25:30 PM »
So, the President is considering invoking the Insurrection Act of 1807. The last time, as I recall, was for the Los Angeles riots of 1992.

What does this mean? Federal troops could then be used in domestic situations. They can be Active Duty, Reserve or National Guard.

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #166 on: June 01, 2020, 07:29:16 PM »
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #167 on: June 01, 2020, 08:10:19 PM »
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Correct ... tragically I heard of a police chief who got all emotional about a rioter who was struck in the head by a non lethal projectile  ... discharged by his officers in response to that particular rioter launching a projectile in the direction of the police officers who fired the non lethal.


A police chief who is more concerned about the wellbeing of a thug attempting to injure members of his force seems to indicate the chief has little regard for his force ... and should find another job.😩

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #168 on: June 01, 2020, 08:18:59 PM »
Bemidji had an 8 pm curfew Sat and Sunday night. My office is about a block from the law enforcement center. Sat afternoon there was a protest there with over 1000 participants. I had gone in late afternoon  to retrieve a locked up handgun, turn off the encrypted server, etc in the event of a break in or worse.

I'm glad the City was proactive! After I left the office Sat evening, my friend John said that the authorities found broken boards in a couple of dumpsters behind us, a couple of blocks from LEC, soaked in fuel, and some Molotov cocktails.

As I left, I drove around a bit, and the police presence was amazing. I never knew they had so many suv "squads" in Bemidji and Beltrami County! Also, there were "strangers" on many street corners, dressed in matching "Black Lives Matter" t-shirts, all with earbuds in their ear, just standing and waiting. As I drove past LEC, they were boarding up the windows with plywood.

This is small city Bemidji! It was spooky!

Sometimes I wish I lived in a more populated area for the sake of certain conveniences.  But right now I'm really happy to be out here in open farm country, quite distant from any large metro area.  I see it played out on my TV, but no sign of any of this unrest around here in this sparsely populated area.  My daughter is a student at CUC, and we had to make a trip to Chicago around the middle of May.  Glad I got in and out and don't have to return until fall.  Also glad that my daughter and son-in-law, who both have jobs connected with the Twin Cities, are working remotely from home.

We are just two miles from the statehouse where protests and rioting are taking place. We hear the pop of countermeasures, hear the emergency vehicles rolling, and smell the smoke of arson lit buildings. But our neighborhood is calm. Whites and African Americans carrying on life together as usual. On Sunday people wondered whether we would have church. We sent out a reassuring email and carried on as usual. My sense is that things are quieting down in Ohio. Thanks be to God.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #169 on: June 01, 2020, 08:36:48 PM »
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Correct ... tragically I heard of a police chief who got all emotional about a rioter who was struck in the head by a non lethal projectile  ... discharged by his officers in response to that particular rioter launching a projectile in the direction of the police officers who fired the non lethal.


A police chief who is more concerned about the wellbeing of a thug attempting to injure members of his force seems to indicate the chief has little regard for his force ... and should find another job.😩
Getting emotional about the unintended death is not a sign of misplaced values. If I killed someone when I wasn’t intending to kill someone, I’d be devastated. That would be a life-changing thing. The chief could be emotional about the situation and what they’re all going through in addition to lamenting the death of someone who wasn’t trying to bring death upon himself and whom nobody was trying to kill (even if the victim was being a fool). To be coolly unemotional about one of your guys killing someone accidentally would be a bad sign.

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #170 on: June 01, 2020, 08:38:14 PM »
Here's how it was handled in our small city over the weekend, Brian. I've heard no cries of "police brutality." Emphasis added.

"Today I am addressing the rumors and misinformation that are engulfing our community surrounding law enforcement’s response to the credible, evidence based threats to the City of Bemidji, its citizens and its businesses that occurred this past weekend. Unfortunately the rumors and misinformation, some shared by public officials, has fueled racial and cultural bias’s that we, as government leaders, have worked so hard to eliminate.

On Friday afternoon we learned that the peaceful protests scheduled to take place at the waterfront were being infiltrated by extremist organizations calling for the “burning Bemidji down” with the threat being concentrated on the downtown area. Very early Saturday morning the Beltrami County Sheriff’s Office, Bemidji Police Department and Bemidji Fire Department put into motion the necessary steps to protect our community from what happened in the metro.

Throughout the day, law enforcement continued to receive threats related to “burning Bemidji down” with threats made directly towards burning down the Beltrami County/Bemidji Police Department law enforcement center. A replication of what took place at the Minneapolis 3rd precinct.

Unfortunately our fears were justified after it was reported to Law enforcement the finding of multiple dumpsters filled with gas accelerants and caches of tools hidden around downtown buildings.

Late in the afternoon the planned peaceful demonstration marched to the law enforcement center and became non-peaceful. Rocks and debris were being thrown at law enforcement center and a police squad car. Law enforcement took immediate action to detain and arrest that subject. The organizers of the peaceful citizen’s march were able to step in, calm and dispersed most of the crowd and stopped any more damage from occurring. Following this escalating event the decision was made to board up all first floor windows of the law enforcement center.

Local law enforcement had called for mutual aid from our law enforcement partners across the state. Some that responded were the elected Sheriff’s and Chiefs of Police of neighboring jurisdictions. Many of the law enforcement officers that responded and patrolled the streets of Bemidji were doing so in dark SUV squad cars. At no time did the Beltrami County Sheriff’s Office or Bemidji Police Department call for private security or citizen’s to assist our law enforcement response as it has been stated on several social media platforms and statements made by government officials.

Unbeknownst to myself or [Bemidji Police] Chief Mastin we learned that some business owners, and citizen’s, including State Representative Matt Grossell had offered to assist and were with local law enforcement officers and a neighboring Sheriff, at a Bemidji Fire Station.

At approximately 9:30 PM, Representative Grossell reached out to me and offered assistance by being “eyes and ears” for law enforcement. Prior to his call, law enforcement had received information that buses of protesters were coming to Bemidji, so when he asked how he could help, I intentionally directed him outside the city limits to watch for buses that may be coming into Bemidji and report his observations to law enforcement...

The intention of law enforcement leadership is to protect the lives, property and rights of all our citizens and that mission was accomplished.

Ernie Beitel, Sheriff
Beltrami County Sheriff’s Office
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 08:41:34 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #171 on: June 01, 2020, 08:47:54 PM »
A man lies dead, killed by an officer of the law in a horrific manner, and his answer is for governors to  use aggressive force on protestors is the last thing we need to hear at this point in time.

I respectively disagree, Ms. Smith. Why weren't these rioters arrested? Mayor Guliani once had 700 rioters arrested to stop a riot on the Brooklyn Bridge. He would have stopped the riot in one day, not let it go on for six days.

The Mpls mayor actually enabled the rioters in Mpls and all over the country in giving up the 3rd Precinct and allowing it to be burned down, sending the message that the rioters and looters can dominate the police and simply walk over them and other authorities.

So it would have been better for the police to shoot and kill those trying to destroy their building? How would that help the complaint against police brutality? Sometimes it's better to loose a battle so that one might win the war.

They should have been arrested as soon as they threw a brick, a Molotov cocktail, etc and certainly as they crossed the threshold.

That’s not police brutality, so I deny your premise. As stated above, voluntarily “[losing] a battle” simply enabled rioters across the nation to do similar and prolong the violence.
Correct ... tragically I heard of a police chief who got all emotional about a rioter who was struck in the head by a non lethal projectile  ... discharged by his officers in response to that particular rioter launching a projectile in the direction of the police officers who fired the non lethal.

A police chief who is more concerned about the wellbeing of a thug attempting to injure members of his force seems to indicate the chief has little regard for his force ... and should find another job.😩
Getting emotional about the unintended death is not a sign of misplaced values. If I killed someone when I wasn’t intending to kill someone, I’d be devastated. That would be a life-changing thing. The chief could be emotional about the situation and what they’re all going through in addition to lamenting the death of someone who wasn’t trying to bring death upon himself and whom nobody was trying to kill (even if the victim was being a fool). To be coolly unemotional about one of your guys killing someone accidentally would be a bad sign.

Perhaps I misread, but didn't James say "non-lethal"?
Don Kirchner

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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #172 on: June 01, 2020, 09:10:09 PM »
I misread the original post. My bad. I thought what had been fired as non-lethal bullet had ended up causing a tragic death. Either way, I wouldn’t read too much into the chief’s emotions.

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #173 on: June 01, 2020, 10:16:56 PM »
Tonight we learn on the news that the pastor and leaders of the site of President Trump's elevation of the Bible, St. John's Church, were not only not informed that he was going to the church, but that the pastor stood firmly against his using the church for any reason, stood with her parishioners in solidarity with those protesting peacefully outside, had spent the last days praying and working for peace in the neighborhood, and was absolutely opposed to the dispersal of the protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets so that the President could make his way over for the two minute elevation of the Bible.

My local church has been the site of various media and civic events, including gun buy-backs, forums on low income housing, crime in the streets, and health care.  Sometimes those events were outside the church building.  Never, never ever, were we not consulted for permission or inclusion in any event with any public agency, from the level of local politicians to US Congressmen and Senators.  Not to have our involvement and permission would have been a deep insult to our faith and to the faithful. 

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #174 on: June 01, 2020, 10:24:40 PM »
The President gets any photo op he wants. It's in the US Constitution, Article II.

Peace,
Michael
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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #175 on: June 01, 2020, 10:31:52 PM »
Tonight we learn on the news that the pastor and leaders of the site of President Trump's elevation of the Bible, St. John's Church, were not only not informed that he was going to the church, but that the pastor stood firmly against his using the church for any reason, stood with her parishioners in solidarity with those protesting peacefully outside, had spent the last days praying and working for peace in the neighborhood, and was absolutely opposed to the dispersal of the protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets so that the President could make his way over for the two minute elevation of the Bible.

My local church has been the site of various media and civic events, including gun buy-backs, forums on low income housing, crime in the streets, and health care.  Sometimes those events were outside the church building.  Never, never ever, were we not consulted for permission or inclusion in any event with any public agency, from the level of local politicians to US Congressmen and Senators.  Not to have our involvement and permission would have been a deep insult to our faith and to the faithful. 

Dave Benke

I don't know where you heard that from, Dave, but I listened to a live interview of Rev Fischer (sp?) Immediately after the visit. He didnt know before hand  that the President was going to walk over there, but he was very appreciative that he did.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #176 on: June 01, 2020, 10:33:43 PM »
That Trump would want to use a church that didn’t want him there seems dumb. Unless, of course, it is a long-standing tradition for presidents to do that, and the church has always allowed it regardless of the confessed faith or degree of sanctification of the one holding the office, in which case it seems like partisan grandstanding to object now.

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #177 on: June 01, 2020, 10:41:33 PM »
Well, the Episcopal Bishop of Washington wasn't too happy that the president had used a church in her diocese to make a personal, political grandstanding statement. (See below)

The NY Times:
Just after Mr. Trump concluded his speech, military police from the National Guard clad in camouflage and riot shields surged in front of a line of law enforcement officers pushing protesters back from the mouth of Lafayette Square outside the White House.
   Police officers used tear gas and flash grenades to clear out the crowd so Mr. Trump could visit the nearby St. John’s Church, where there had been a parish house basement fire Sunday night. The president stood in front of the boarded up church posing for photographs with a Bible, after the police dispersed peaceful protesters. (CA Note: So the police chased away "peaceful protestors." I thought the president approved of "peaceful protestors". )
   Mr. Trump walked back to the White House after a few minutes.
   The president’s church visit was criticized by Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington, who said she was “outraged” that Mr. Trump went to the church “after he threatened to basically rain down military force.”
   “The president used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and one of the churches of my diocese, without even asking us, as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus and everything that our church stands for,” she said in an interview.
   Mayor Muriel Bowser of Washington said the federal police officers’ clearing of peaceful protesters was “shameful” and had made the job of city police officers harder.

I comment:
Folks here will not be surprised when I find this a most disgusting, cowardly, insensitive, and abusive act even for this president. The entire week-end he is in hiding, picking fights with various people; then he emerges with militaristic threats, even threats that could not be carried out unless laws were broken. To pick up a Bible for a staged phony visit to a church, a visit that had absolutely nothing to do with faith, church or religion is an abomination.
If more chaos and - pray that it not be true - deaths occur, it will not because protestors broke some windows or threw a rock at a heavily armed and armored police officer. It will be because of the attitudes and actions of the president and those who cheer his words, attitudes reflected in the "arrest all protestors" statements flying around even this modest forum.
Mercy!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 10:49:54 PM by Charles Austin »
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #178 on: June 01, 2020, 10:50:33 PM »
What did he say that was so antithetical to everything the Episcopal church's tradition stands for?

Edit: I found this quote from his remarks outside the church: "I want organizers of this terror to be on notice that you will face severe criminal penalties," he said. "We cannot allow the righteous cries of peaceful protesters to be drowned out by an angry mob," the president added. "The biggest victims of this rioting are peace-loving citizens in our poorest communities."

What a horrible, anti-Christian thing-- the chief executive of the nation's secular government vowing to enforce the nation's secular laws per his oath of office in defense of the peace-loving citizens of the poorest communities at risk in a time of lawlessness. The nerve.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 11:00:17 PM by peter_speckhard »

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #179 on: June 01, 2020, 10:51:58 PM »
Your point is...?

I think Rev Fisher (sp?) Is the pastor there. He was appreciative. Who cares what the political hierarchy and you think?
Don Kirchner

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