Author Topic: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......  (Read 39174 times)

Voelker

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #120 on: May 31, 2020, 10:04:27 PM »
I have to confess I truly don't understand when people who profess conservatism and limited government principles are swift to defend police brutality and broad extension of police powers.

There are some conservatives who object to policy brutality and broad extension of police powers, but not nearly enough.  Those who claim to be champions of the Bill of Rights out to be the first to object when those basic liberties are violated.  Here is one example:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cops-kill-because-we-gave-them-the-legal-framework-to-do-it/
Thanks for the link. This link is also a decent read: https://ricochet.com/762527/two-pictures-one-coin/.

Americans have to come together in order to defend liberty (and each other) from overweening authority, and this starts with speaking for those who are in the weakest positions. Or else we get police state actions like this — (coarse language warning) https://streamable.com/u2jzoo. If the National Guard acts like this in what looks to be a middle-class residential neighborhood, one wonders just what goes on in poorer, lower-social class areas.

Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?   That seems to be a leap.  If not an outright accusation of sin.
I'm guessing the "not" isn't supposed to be there. Answer: The leap, if there is one, is at best a bunny hop. It's about circumstances (which I will get to), and the example set by police. There is a clear difference in how police generally approach middle-class vs. lower-class neighborhoods, one that is well-known in our society through news reports and depictions in fictional media, and one would expect that those in the NG have been exposed to those same attitudes, for good or bad.

As for the circumstances, here we have the NG moving through a neighborhood where no one is on the street, people are in their homes or on their porches, and no one is in (or potentially in) their way. They're in circumstances where they can be pretty sure that many, if not most homes have cameras rolling 24/7 (so you'd expect more circumspect behavior), and where there aren't any visible signs of looting / vandalism / violence. It's a threat-poor area, and they're acting like they're in the middle of Baghdad (this is also a good example of why bringing in soldiers to do police work is a bad, bad idea except in the worst situations). If this is how they respond to a far-from-tense situation with placid surroundings, how can we expect them to settle down and groove along once they move into an area where things are on fire, where windows are broken, where looting may be going on? (I'm working from the news reports that the brunt of the damage has been taken by lower-economic-class neighborhoods.) This unit was treating peaceful US citizens in their own homes as the enemy — hmmm....come to think of it, perhaps you're right! Perhaps they wouldn't treat US citizens in different neighborhoods in different ways — maybe they'll just display the same jumpy, undisciplined, paranoid behavior no matter where they are — the possibility of which should scare anyone with a lick of sense. One would hope that our military (and our police) would not regard the citizens of this country, no matter the neighborhood, as the enemy.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #121 on: May 31, 2020, 10:09:53 PM »
From the Great Ektania (Litany) of every Orthodox Orthros, Divine Liturgy, and Vespers:

Quote
For our country, for the president, and for all in public service, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For this city, and for every city and land, and for the faithful who live in them, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For favorable weather, for an abundance of the fruits of the earth, and for peaceful times, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For those who travel by land, sea, and air, for the sick, the suffering, the captives and for their salvation, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)

For our deliverance from all affliction, wrath, danger and distress, and from the peril of the coronavirus against us, let us pray to the Lord.

(Lord, have mercy.)
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Dave Benke

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #122 on: May 31, 2020, 10:12:55 PM »
A memory triggered from when I was a kid of 21, in the summer of 1967.  I was working third shift/nights at A. O.Smith, at that time a factory complex employing 10,000 people.  All of my bosses were African-American men.  We were all in the Steelworkers Union, good wages, and I was working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week.  Meaning, I paid my tuition, room and board for the year at the Senior College from those wages. 

I was learning kind of the ways of the city from those men, who were family men.  The south side white guys with whom I worked, not being Baptist, were much more attuned to the drinking life, and went off for a "nightcap" at 7 AM each day.  I just went home to sleep. 

But on a certain summer day at the end of July, we got off work, headed to our cars, and - what? -  tanks were coming down 27th street.  The National Guard had been called in.  Curfew for the whole city.  It was blamed on outside instigators from Detroit and Chicago (which was always the way in Milwaukee - the big city people were trying to control our smaller big city).  Tanks for the memories.

The National Guard presence is distinct in my memory.  I worked from 7 to 7, so could get in to the factory before the curfew and out after it was lifted.  Anyway, being mentored by those African-American men's important to my vocation later to serve in the city.  And later a very, very dedicated priest, Father Groppi, led marches across the great Milwaukee Divide, the Viaduct, from the North Side to the South Side.  For months and months.  Against long odds.  The Lutheran Pastor Joel Ellwanger was with him, from an LCMS congregation named Cross Lutheran on the near North Side.

Milwaukee, unfortunately, is a city still divided along racial lines.  Except for Antetokoumpo, who unites us all.

Dave Benke

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #123 on: May 31, 2020, 10:39:15 PM »
Slightly older friend of mine, ex Marine who became a pastor, was in or near Milwaukee. He married my wife’s former College roommate. Visiting there Some months after the wedding, I got to meet both Fr. Groppi and Joe Ellwanger. Inspiring guys.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

James J Eivan

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2020, 12:54:08 AM »
Slightly older friend of mine, ex Marine who became a pastor, was in or near Milwaukee. He married my wife’s former College roommate. Visiting there Some months after the wedding, I got to meet both Fr. Groppi and Joe Ellwanger. Inspiring guys.
Since we are name dropping,  my retired pastor graduated from CSL with Rev Joe Elwanger’s brother .. I was in town and attended the son’s funeral years ago.  Another of his classmates, Richard Ziehr, wrote “The Struggle for Unity: A personal look at the integration of Lutheran churches in the South” a very interesting book ... worth the read ... Rev Joe was mentioned in that book on a number of occasions. Sorry ... I’ve met the author on occasion ... but don’t carry enough weight to swing a friends and neighbor discount.😷


Back to the issue at hand ... the evening news was laughable ... if only it were not true. Video of protesters running down a downtown highway embankment chocking on a bit of tear gas exclaiming “ I cant believe they would do this to “peaceful” protesters ... peaceful protesters who had been laying down the the main lanes of an interstate highway ... disrupting interstate commerce by stopping traffic.


These “peaceful” protesters have graffitied buildings all over down town, some so vile that the local TV stations apologize they cannot show it on air ... the complicit media deliberately avoiding videoing a crime in progress that could identify the thugs. These thugs think they are peaceful ... yet they damage and deface property ... just because.😢


A friend’s single female coworker is considering a gun for protection ... though I have never owned a gun, maybe it is time to reconsider ... if todays protesters believe graffiti vandalism of innocent peoples property is “peaceful”, perhaps they need to be introduced to the peaceful end of a gun ... don’t worry ... purchasing a gun would leave a paper trail for the head stalker to trail.🤩


Next is word that one of the few small businesses looted last night was a black owned small business ... so we have protesters protesting the death of a black man by looting the small business of a black person. Laughable ... if only it was not true.😶

Dave Benke

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #125 on: June 01, 2020, 09:03:28 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/us/flint-michigan-protest-police-trnd/index.html.  Along with Episcopal Bishop Curry's words this morning, and with this: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=963042194154057.   Words and deeds of hope.

Dave Benke

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #126 on: June 01, 2020, 09:39:10 AM »
Headlines in Minneapolis today:
Relatively few “outside agitators”
Minnesota’s attorney general will take charge of the prosecution of the Former police officer already arrested
Neighbors and others are gathering in the affected neighborhoods to help with the cleanup.
In other news media:
Chaos in the White House. Some advisers want him to speak, others think he should shut up. Meanwhile, all his tweets are directed at those perceived to be his enemies. Picking fights with them. Using inflammatory language.
In some places around the country, television crews and the Print news media are attacked by police, despite their press tags in full view. Minnesota’s governor apologized to the CNN crew who was harassed and the on the air reporter arrested.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

RandyBosch

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #127 on: June 01, 2020, 09:41:49 AM »
Joel 1:13-14
13
Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests;
    wail, O ministers of the altar.
Go in, pass the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
Because grain offering and drink offering
    are withheld from the house of your God.
14
Consecrate a fast;
    call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders
    and all the inhabitants of the land
to the house of the Lord your God,
    and cry out to the Lord.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2020, 09:57:33 AM »
St. Patrick's Cathedral vandalized.  Also the historic St. John's Episcopal church in DC was set on fire.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA

https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html

Of course, we should expect that the church will be caught in the middle of the violence and mayhem. It is sad, however, to see places of worship desecrated.  Peaceful protestors would not do this.  It does not serve any positive purpose. 

One of the marks of graffiti on St. Patrick's says: "No justice, no peace."  I understand what it means, in a basic way.  But is the call for instant justice, then peace?  According to these protestors are we to suspect the normal means of jurisprudence and simply convict and punish these people?  Or is it that justice was be of the most extreme nature for justice to be served?  Unfortunately graffiti does not answer what they are calling for.  So what has to happen for peace to be granted?

Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #129 on: June 01, 2020, 10:12:44 AM »
Had protests here yesterday. Border was closed between Cook County, IL and Lake County, IN, between Calumet City and Hammond and for at least a little while between Lansing and Munster. Many members of the congregation who are police or first responders on either side of the border were called in.

My question is what the protests want. If their demands were met, what would change? When people ludicrously compare these protests to the protests in Michigan against the Governor's excessive Covid-related executive orders, they gloss over very obvious distinctions. First, the protesters of the Covid orders in Michigan had specific demands. They also were protesting against real people who did not agree with their demands and thought the governor's orders should remain in place. And, obviously, they didn't burn anything or steal stuff.

In this case, however, the demonstrators are demanding...what exactly? And they stand opposed to...who exactly? Nobody is in favor of police brutality the way Gov. Whitmer is in favor of keeping Michigan closed. So it seems to me to amount to pointless, amorphous rage, unless we are to take seriously some of the antifa manifestos written in college seminars about the need to overthrow capitalism and Western civ. generally.

James J Eivan

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #130 on: June 01, 2020, 10:17:38 AM »
St. Patrick's Cathedral vandalized.  Also the historic St. John's Episcopal church in DC was set on fire.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/st-patricks-cathedral-desecrated-with-protest-graffiti/?fbclid=IwAR1LYdQ3BhsLIygvs8AALXnh0DKsXrYPKp1F_CtNSruhLl8yuwgoT9h7wRA

https://www.christianpost.com/news/historic-st-johns-episcopal-church-set-on-fire.html

Of course, we should expect that the church will be caught in the middle of the violence and mayhem. It is sad, however, to see places of worship desecrated.  Peaceful protestors would not do this.  It does not serve any positive purpose. 

One of the marks of graffiti on St. Patrick's says: "No justice, no peace."  I understand what it means, in a basic way.  But is the call for instant justice, then peace?  According to these protestors are we to suspect the normal means of jurisprudence and simply convict and punish these people?  Or is it that justice was be of the most extreme nature for justice to be served?  Unfortunately graffiti does not answer what they are calling for.  So what has to happen for peace to be granted?
Where do these destructive thugs get the idea that 2 wrongs are the answer ... rather than they are simply common criminals when they intentionally destroy public/private property?

Robert Johnson

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #131 on: June 01, 2020, 10:27:33 AM »
In this case, however, the demonstrators are demanding...what exactly? And they stand opposed to...who exactly? Nobody is in favor of police brutality the way Gov. Whitmer is in favor of keeping Michigan closed. So it seems to me to amount to pointless, amorphous rage, unless we are to take seriously some of the antifa manifestos written in college seminars about the need to overthrow capitalism and Western civ. generally.

Your last sentence has it.  Antifa’ s goal is to create chaos, which, if successful and large enough could bring down our form of government.  I hope it is a pipe dream for them, but they are having enough success in enough widely disparate cities to wonder.

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #132 on: June 01, 2020, 10:32:13 AM »
Pastor Bohler:
Why do you assume that the National Guard would not treat both neighborhoods (middle-class and poorer ones) differently?  That seems to be a leap.
Me:
No, it’s not.

Do you have proof, or is it just opinion?  I wonder what those of our members who were in the military think of that.  Dr. Gard?  Rev. Hannah?  Rev. Precup?  Do you think it is a fair accusation?  I have never served in the military, so I would like to hear from those who have.

Oh, by the way, I see I made a grammatical error in my original post: I meant why is it assumed that the National Guard WOULD treat the neighborhoods differently?

The National Guard (Army and Air Force) are different than the Reserve components. That distinction is found in who can order them to active duty and for what mission. The Reserves are federal troops under the authority of the elected President as Commander in Chief. The Guard can also be mobilized by the President and function alongside their reserve and Active Duty counterparts. But the Guard can also be mobilized by the Governor of the State and then they come under the command authority of that Governor.

Guard units are highly trained for the mission assigned to the unit. If they are mobilized by the Governor, as the current mobilizations have been, they will be sent to whatever location the elected civilian authority decides. Remember that these are soldiers who are a disciplined force and will be issued rules of engagement by civilian authority. If ordered to a civil disturbance, they will be there to protect lives and property.

I have never been in the National Guard - I was always Navy Reserve and thus always federal, not State. However, I have worked closely with soldiers of the National Guard in Joint Task Forces under federal mobilization. They were nothing short of outstanding and there was no way to distinguish them from the active duty and Reserve soldiers.

Charles Austin

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #133 on: June 01, 2020, 10:35:19 AM »
Peter writes:
In this case, however, the demonstrators are demanding...what exactly? And they stand opposed to...who exactly? Nobody is in favor of police brutality the way Gov. Whitmer is in favor of keeping Michigan closed. So it seems to me to amount to pointless, amorphous rage, unless we are to take seriously some of the antifa manifestos written in college seminars about the need to overthrow capitalism and Western civ. generally.

I comment:
If you have to ask those questions, Peter, you weren’t listening. And sometimes protests are not for “specific” activities to change things. They exist to point out the horrors that need to be corrected.
Your response as usual fails to take into consideration the feelings, yes feelings, of those who have suffered under the current situation.
I don’t think anyone is engaged in an intellectual or even political effort to change western civilization, except for the racist police brutality part of it that exists in our country.
And yes, some people are in favor of police brutality. I think we hear echoes of it even in this modest forum.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

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Re: Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......
« Reply #134 on: June 01, 2020, 10:36:55 AM »
Headlines in Minneapolis today:
Relatively few “outside agitators”
Minnesota’s attorney general will take charge of the prosecution of the Former police officer already arrested
Neighbors and others are gathering in the affected neighborhoods to help with the cleanup.
In other news media:
Chaos in the White House. Some advisers want him to speak, others think he should shut up. Meanwhile, all his tweets are directed at those perceived to be his enemies. Picking fights with them. Using inflammatory language.
In some places around the country, television crews and the Print news media are attacked by police, despite their press tags in full view. Minnesota’s governor apologized to the CNN crew who was harassed and the on the air reporter arrested.

Other headlines:

Luxury stores looted in overnight protests in NYC as de Blasio says there’s ‘limited protest activity’

"The NYPD avoided scrimmages with thieves and instead focused on clearing the streets, which saw thousands of demonstrators throughout the weekend."

"Small business owners in several metropolitan cities are wondering whether they’ll be able to economically recover after protests in reaction to George Floyd’s death turned violent, and rioters destroyed storefronts and looted goods as the streets devolved into chaos."

"Small business owners fear worst after rioting, looting destroy storefronts during pandemic"


"The owner of Levels clothing store in Minneapolis, Brandy Moore, 41, has been left with just rubble after rioters broke into one of her locations last week to loot the store before setting a fire that spread to several adjacent buildings, USA Today reported."

"Secret Service agents wounded outside White House [50 over the weekend, 14 on Sunday alone] car bombs feared; official says Trump was taken to bunker"

"As authorities clashed with demonstrators for the third straight night, the parish house connected to the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church across the street from the White House was set on fire late Sunday. The parish house contains offices and parlors for gatherings. The basement, which was also torched, is used for childcare during church services, and had recently undergone renovations."

"Son of Minnesota’s attorney general: 'I hereby declare, officially, my support for ANTIFA'"

"Jeremiah Ellison, who is a member of the Minneapolis City Council, noted in the tweet that he believes "white power" terrorists are actually the ones engaging in the looting, arson and other riot activities as violent sects hijack some of the protests against racial inequality and police brutality in the wake of the death of George Floyd last Monday."

"After police faced stinging criticism for heavy-handed tactics deployed during the first night of protests, critics like City Council Member Jeremiah Ellison were among those who expressed disappointment at the department’s failure to maintain public safety late Wednesday.

"We always do this — we create a barrier, put the police out there, put them in a line, put face masks, depersonalize them, make them look as scary as possible and we always get this result, and then we want to point the finger at community members,” Ellison told MPR Thursday."

Don Kirchner

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