Author Topic: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection  (Read 2647 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2020, 04:00:44 PM »
Pastor Fienen writes, overstating things again:
You regularly post something like this. Do you really think that the rest of us don't get this? That we are so ignorant of the varieties of service given to our nation that we fail to honor those who serve without bearing arms?
I comment:
Sometimes. And society in general is, but (see below)

Pastor Fienen:
That is an insulting accusation of ignorance and insensitivity. We do not need, someday, to learn this, we long ago learned this. As Chaplain Hannah pointed out, the Memorial Day observance concert recognized and honored those who are serving in many ways, including grocery stores and truck drivers during this pandemic crisis.
Me:
Yes, this year those other people are on our minds because now, for the first time in our lives, I think, people in this country have to risk their lives for the sake of the greater good. The pandemic is teaching us that.

Pastor Fienen:
In my own Memorial Day observances for this past Sunday, I included all of these serving and risking during this crisis, as well as the families who support for the workers often includes hardship and loss. Someday we will learn?!? We learned.
Me:
Good. You learned

Pastor Fienen:
Or is it that so long as Memorial Day is observed and those who bore arms and gave the last full measure of devotion are remembered and honored that we have not sufficiently learned your lesson?
Me:
No. Not at all. Memorial day and the November Veterans Day are great opportunities for an understanding of this. I alway took part in those observances.  , I only note from time to time that there are other ways to serve our country, or other ways to work for justice, equality, and truth where people may be called to make that “ultimate sacrifice.” (Sometimes, that sacrifice is even made by journalists.)
And should one think my comments are “utterly tasteless, boorish and completely and entirely tone deaf,” I will just say: Such a person eagerly rushes to judgment, doesn’t read carefully, and - as we know from long experience with such people  - loves being on the “weapon” side of “protecting” our freedoms. Some of us want to make sure that there are Christians on the non-weapon side.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2020, 04:05:13 PM »

A heartfelt YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omd9_FJnerY . The music is John Williams' "Hymn to the Fallen" from Saving Private Ryan. The pictures are U. S. military cemeteries around the world with the number intered.


Another YouTube video based on the British patriotic hymn "I Vow to Thee My Country" and adapted for the United States. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrljyWm8D08
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Charles Austin

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2020, 04:13:10 PM »
Peter writes:
The difference is in the purpose of the vocation and the oath of office. Nobody who signs up to be, say, a doctor, pledges to make that ultimate sacrifice on behalf of strangers.
I muse:
Then it occurs to me that one might think their actions are even more noble. The soldier, the cop knows from the start what they might be called upon to do.
My concern takes nothing away from what men and women in uniform are called to do, and most of my male friends are veterans. They know how I feel, but it’s only in this modest forum where my comments that there are other ways to serve seem to cause trouser sizzles in certain quarters.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Benke

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2020, 04:18:11 PM »

Dan Fienen

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2020, 04:21:42 PM »

Charles, there may well be those who do not properly honor those who serve without bearing arms. But do you honestly think those of us who are part of this forum community are counted among them? That we have yet to learn that? (I do not usually include grocery workers among those who risk their lives in service of this nation and her people as I did this year. Usually grocery work does not entail that kind of danger, now it does. I regularly include Police (normally armed), Fire (normally unarmed), and First Responders (mixed) in my Memorial Day prayers with military and their families.


My problem is not your call to remember those who are not under arms or in uniform as also serving and occasionally dying for our country, it was your "someday . . . we will learn" that seems to imply dissatisfaction with how those who serve are being honored.
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P.T. McCain

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2020, 04:22:17 PM »

A heartfelt YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omd9_FJnerY . The music is John Williams' "Hymn to the Fallen" from Saving Private Ryan. The pictures are U. S. military cemeteries around the world with the number intered.

Wow, that is powerfully moving. Thanks for posting it Dan. It reminded me immediately of what General Colin Powell said a number of years ago:

"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in, and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace. But there comes a time when soft power or talking with evil will not work where, unfortunately, hard power is the only thing that works."

Dan Fienen

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2020, 04:24:55 PM »



<<snip>>


They know how I feel, but it’s only in this modest forum where my comments that there are other ways to serve seem to cause trouser sizzles in certain quarters.

It is not so much your reminder that there are other ways to serve than under arms that sizzle my trousers, its your implication that we in this modest forum need to "someday" learn that. But then we have a pretty good idea of your general opinion of the rest of us anyway.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2020, 04:28:52 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
My problem is not your call to remember those who are not under arms or in uniform as also serving and occasionally dying for our country, it was your "someday . . . we will learn" that seems to imply dissatisfaction with how those who serve are being honored.

Me:
It doesn’t. And I have said so before. Everything OK now?

Pastor Fienen:
It is not so much your reminder that there are other ways to serve than under arms that sizzle my trousers, its your implication that we in this modest forum need to "someday" learn that. But then we have a pretty good idea of your general opinion of the rest of us anyway.
Me:
See above. And you do not know my “general opinion“ of “the rest of us“. You are not all alike.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 04:31:51 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2020, 04:31:12 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
My problem is not your call to remember those who are not under arms or in uniform as also serving and occasionally dying for our country, it was your "someday . . . we will learn" that seems to imply dissatisfaction with how those who serve are being honored.

Me:
It doesn’t. And I have said so before. Everything OK now?

Sure, OK, you didn't really mean what it sounded like you said. Will all respect, as a former professional journalist and current free lancer you must understand that precision in using language is important. Less precision more risks misunderstanding.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Charles Austin

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2020, 04:35:04 PM »
There is also Such a thing as Precision in reading, and a thoughtful analysis Not colored by old prejudice of what is said.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Benke

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2020, 04:36:36 PM »

A heartfelt YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omd9_FJnerY . The music is John Williams' "Hymn to the Fallen" from Saving Private Ryan. The pictures are U. S. military cemeteries around the world with the number intered.


Another YouTube video based on the British patriotic hymn "I Vow to Thee My Country" and adapted for the United States. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrljyWm8D08

Thanks for this, Dan.  Because of its sweeping views of the various cemeteries it led me to think a thought I had not had before, which is - where are all the German soldiers buried?  First off, I wonder why I had never had that thought.  I think plainly because I'm an American. 

But, as it turns out, many are buried in Belgium, and on the soil where the various battles were fought.  And the national day of mourning is actually set up liturgically - called Volkstrauertag and held two Sundays prior to Advent I, purposefully inside the Christian liturgical calendar. 

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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2020, 04:45:52 PM »
No. Not at all. Memorial day and the November Veterans Day are great opportunities for an understanding of this. I alway took part in those observances.  , I only note from time to time that there are other ways to serve our country, or other ways to work for justice, equality, and truth where people may be called to make that “ultimate sacrifice.” (Sometimes, that sacrifice is even made by journalists.)


Perhaps if on this forum your "from time to time" weren't invariably an occasion already set aside for a particular set of those who served...

Kyrie eleison, Steven+
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Charles Austin

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 05:27:54 PM »
Gee, thanks, Steven. That’s brilliant!
Remind me to bring the topic up in connection with Valentine’s Day, or maybe New Years Day.
No, wait. Arbor Day! That’s the time when we are thinking about honoring certain kinds of people.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2020, 05:29:20 PM »
Peter writes:
The difference is in the purpose of the vocation and the oath of office. Nobody who signs up to be, say, a doctor, pledges to make that ultimate sacrifice on behalf of strangers.
I muse:
Then it occurs to me that one might think their actions are even more noble. The soldier, the cop knows from the start what they might be called upon to do.
My concern takes nothing away from what men and women in uniform are called to do, and most of my male friends are veterans. They know how I feel, but it’s only in this modest forum where my comments that there are other ways to serve seem to cause trouser sizzles in certain quarters.
Charles wrote [emphasis added]: "And someday, probably not on memorial day weekend, we will learn that one can serve one’s country and perhaps even have to make that “ultimate sacrifice” without putting on a uniform and picking up a weapon."

I responded by agreeing with the point and giving a good example, but objecting to the idea that there was anybody anywhere who disagreed. The obvious implication of Charles's post was that he was aware of something that others weren't but should be. As such, it was a needlessly accusatory and obnoxious post.

In response to my response, Charles writes: "...but it’s only in this modest forum where my comments that there are other ways to serve seem to cause trouser sizzles in certain quarters."

Of course, NOBODY, in ANY forum, no matter how modest, has ever objected his or anyone's else's mere assertion that "there are other ways to serve." In other words, he actually tilts at his own straw men as though they are real, which would be fine as a private hobby if he didn't identify "some others in this forum" as these straw men.

It is good for those who are constantly engaged with Charles to bear in mind. Just leave it. He really can't help himself and really doesn't understand the objection. Let him alone.


Charles Austin

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Re: Memorial Day 2020 Reflection
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2020, 05:41:41 PM »
Pastor Peter:
Of course, NOBODY, in ANY forum, no matter how modest, has ever objected his or anyone's else's mere assertion that "there are other ways to serve." In other words, he actually tilts at his own straw men as though they are real, which would be fine as a private hobby if he didn't identify "some others in this forum" as these straw men.
Me:
I stand in awe at your grasp of what I have seen and heard and experienced over the years. How do you do that?

Peter:
It is good for those who are constantly engaged with Charles to bear in mind. Just leave it. He really can't help himself and really doesn't understand the objection. Let him alone.
Me:
I have at times said here, if you don’t like what I say, just ignore it. But for some people, that seems hard to do.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.