Author Topic: ELCA prays to "Mother God"  (Read 49607 times)

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #435 on: May 17, 2020, 04:23:09 PM »
The ELCA as a denomination must be doing something wrong........

Membership at his founding in 1987........5.2 million members
Membership in the year of 2018..............3.3 million members

The urge to merge the ALC and LCA  cannot be sugarcoated, it was not a smart  move.   Some have called the ELCA a disaster since 2009.

LCMS Membership in 1987 ..... 2.6 million members
Membership today ......  "nearly 2 million" members

That only looks good in comparison to the ELCA., which since 2009 also experienced the largest schism in American Lutheran history -- far bigger than the LCMS schism of the 1970s.  If the "urge to merge" caused a loss of 3/8ths of the ELCA, what caused the loss of 1/4th of the LCMS?  Methinks there may be more than a speck in your eye.

 
As one formed in the Muhlenberg tradition, I will continue to assert that what you keep calling "the urge to merge" was not the problem. I still believe that "urge" -- better, the vision that there be one Lutheran church in America -- to have been (and, still, to be) a good thing.  Frankly, I believe it's an absolutely necessary thing.

But we were much less well prepared for it than we thought we were, and we utterly failed to do what was necessary -- both before and, especially, after 1987 -- to become one church.  Some of those things were internal to the ELCA, and some were part of the general culture.  And maybe by 2087 we'll be ready.

Though hopefully that "one Lutheran church" isn't just one last Lutheran congregation.

Pax, Steven+
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Charles Austin

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #436 on: May 17, 2020, 04:27:52 PM »
I agree, mostly, with Steven.  We left too many things unsettled in 1987.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Looking forward to participating in the ordination of a young woman from  Minnesota called to a parish in western North Dakota.

Dave Likeness

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #437 on: May 17, 2020, 04:40:52 PM »
You can talk about specks and logs in the eyes of people.  However, I know it, you know it,
and most Lutherans in America know it.........the ordination of pastors who are in a
homo-sexual "marriage" is the real issue.  Homosexual behavior is an abomination to the
Lord in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.   Marriage was instituted by God
for one man and one woman. Yet, God is ignored when homosexual marriages are blessed
and married homosexuals are ordained as pastors.  Honestly, the ELCA has a problem
on this issue which will not go away.

Charles Austin

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #438 on: May 17, 2020, 04:47:07 PM »
Dave Likeness opines:
Honestly, the ELCA has a problem on this issue which will not go away.
I comment:
No. Certain other people have a “problem with this.”
We know your opinion on “abomination.” No need to keep hammering.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Looking forward to participating in the ordination of a young woman from  Minnesota called to a parish in western North Dakota.

pearson

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #439 on: May 17, 2020, 05:34:15 PM »

I was wondering about the definition of "substantial", whether you meant it in the more common sense of "significant" or "considerable", or whether you meant it in the strict sense of changing the substance of a thing.   ;) 


I hope I was headed in the direction of common sense on "substantial."

As presented to the Assembly, HSGT was more of a descriptive doument than a presecriptive one; it was long on depicting the current state of the conversation in the ELCA, and short on charting a definitive direction forward.  So it was not fundementally a "policy" document.  But once HSGT had been adopted, then the policy revisions were necessary.  The accompanying implementing resolutions provided the scaffolding for the "substantial" policy changes.
 

My question to Brian was whether there was a substantial difference between the "compromise" and having chosen instead to simply vote in of full acceptance of the ordination of partnered homosexuals.  I don't see a substantial difference.
 

I'm with you, Pr. Charlton.  HSGT certainly didn't look, smell or feel to me like a compromise proposal.  It may be that the ELCA in 2009 spoke only sotto voce about where things might be headed, so that no one of any persuasion would be too alarmed at that moment, no matter what happened with the vote.  If that was the compromise, it apparently didn't work.

Tom Pearson

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #440 on: May 17, 2020, 05:42:19 PM »

Let me ask you this, if the ELCA had voted for a policy change, rather than for the "compromise" that was HSGT, how would  things have been any different?


As a voting member at the 2009 CWA is Minneapolis, we were indeed beng invited to vote on implementing a proposed substantial policy change (and not simply acknowledging "acceptable differences within the membership of our church"); and most of us knew it.

Tom Pearson

Did most people think that the proposed substantial policy change represented a compromise?  If so, in what way was it a compromise?


I already shared Resolution 4. Here are the other resolutions in ministry policies. They are clear to me that they were voting on a change.


ASSEMBLY ACTION: YES-771 (77.0%); NO-230 (23.0%)
CA09.05.23 RESOLVED, that in the implementation of any resolutions on ministry policies, the ELCA commit itself to bear one another’s burdens, love the neighbor, and respect the bound consciences of all.

ASSEMBLY ACTION: YES-619 (60.6%); NO-402 (39.4%)
CA09.05.24 RESOLVED, that the ELCA commit itself to finding ways to allow congregations that choose to do so to recognize, support, and hold publicly accountable lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships.

ASSEMBLY ACTION: YES-559 (55.3%); NO-451 (44.7%)
CA09.05.26 RESOLVED, that the ELCA commit itself to finding a way for people in such publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships to serve as rostered leaders of this church.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #441 on: May 17, 2020, 05:44:42 PM »
My question to Brian was whether there was a substantial difference between the "compromise" and having chosen instead to simply vote in of full acceptance of the ordination of partnered homosexuals.  I don't see a substantial difference.


Depends on whether you're talking about the Statement, which was a compromise document - and required 2/3 majority for approval; or the four ministry policy resolutions which were not a compromise - and required a majority for approval.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #442 on: May 17, 2020, 05:59:23 PM »
The ELCA as a denomination must be doing something wrong........

Membership at his founding in 1987........5.2 million members
Membership in the year of 2018..............3.3 million members

The urge to merge the ALC and LCA  cannot be sugarcoated, it was not a smart  move.   Some have called the ELCA a disaster since 2009.

LCMS Membership in 1987 ..... 2.6 million members
Membership today ......  "nearly 2 million" members

That only looks good in comparison to the ELCA., which since 2009 also experienced the largest schism in American Lutheran history -- far bigger than the LCMS schism of the 1970s.  If the "urge to merge" caused a loss of 3/8ths of the ELCA, what caused the loss of 1/4th of the LCMS?  Methinks there may be more than a speck in your eye.

 
As one formed in the Muhlenberg tradition, I will continue to assert that what you keep calling "the urge to merge" was not the problem. I still believe that "urge" -- better, the vision that there be one Lutheran church in America -- to have been (and, still, to be) a good thing.  Frankly, I believe it's an absolutely necessary thing.

But we were much less well prepared for it than we thought we were, and we utterly failed to do what was necessary -- both before and, especially, after 1987 -- to become one church.  Some of those things were internal to the ELCA, and some were part of the general culture.  And maybe by 2087 we'll be ready.

Though hopefully that "one Lutheran church" isn't just one last Lutheran congregation.


I don't think anyone, except possibly David Preus, were aware about how different the ALC and LCA were in church polity. Then to throw in the AELC and a third understanding of ministry. We never created a sense of "glue" that held us together.


The first (small) "exodus" wasn't over sexuality, but before the ELCA was formed, over the lack of "inerrancy" language about the Bible. TAALC was created in 1987 for those congregations who did not want to be part of the new church. The second (small) "exodus" wasn't over sexuality, but over our agreement with the Episcopal Church in 1999 (after failing approval in 1997). LCMC was created in 2001. NALC was formed in 2010 in response to the 2009 vote.


The first two exoduses were almost all former ALC congregations. Some claimed (wrongly, I believe,) that ELCA stood for "Expanded Lutheran Church in America." Some ALCers never felt like they were really part of the new church. The last exodus was broader.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #443 on: May 17, 2020, 06:10:16 PM »
Perhaps the compromise was that those who did not agree with position #4 in HSGT were not to be immediately removed from the ELCA. They would be given time to repent and get on board or failing that accept internal exile and marginalization.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

mj4

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #444 on: May 17, 2020, 06:17:36 PM »
Let me ask you this, if the ELCA had voted for a policy change, rather than for the "compromise" that was HSGT, how would  things have been any different?

I am reminded of King Solomon's compromise for the sake of peace with his foreign wives. He constructed a temple at which he made sacrifices to the Lord, but also made sacrifices to his wives' idols. So was compromise any better than an outright policy change?

Therefore the Lord said to Solomon, “Since this has been your mind and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and give it to your servant.  1 Kings 11:11

pearson

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #445 on: May 17, 2020, 06:28:35 PM »

Depends on whether you're talking about the Statement, which was a compromise document - and required 2/3 majority for approval


A compromise document?  As sometime happens here -- this time, on the term "compromise" -- you must be working from a different definition than I am.  A short summary statement of HGST might be, "We have a mess on our hands; there is no obvious consensus on this question in the ELCA.  So tell you what we'll do: we'll report to you what we found out about this church."  A couple of members of the Sexuality Task Force said as much on the floor of the Assembly.  Is that your definition of "compromise"?

Tom Pearson

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #446 on: May 17, 2020, 06:41:11 PM »

Depends on whether you're talking about the Statement, which was a compromise document - and required 2/3 majority for approval


A compromise document?  As sometime happens here -- this time, on the term "compromise" -- you must be working from a different definition than I am.  A short summary statement of HGST might be, "We have a mess on our hands; there is no obvious consensus on this question in the ELCA.  So tell you what we'll do: we'll report to you what we found out about this church."  A couple of members of the Sexuality Task Force said as much on the floor of the Assembly.  Is that your definition of "compromise"?


You would know better than I, but as I read through the minutes and many amendments to the Statement and resolutions, it seemed to me that they refused to adopt changes that made the Statement go either direction. One definition of "compromise" is "the acceptance of standards that are lower than is desirable." In order to get something that would be approved, it refrained from taking a stand in any direction. It remained "middle of the road-ish."

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]