Author Topic: ELCA prays to "Mother God"  (Read 48137 times)

DCharlton

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2020, 04:16:24 PM »
If I understand correctly, Hinduism has a trinity of its own, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.  I also understand that other god's of Hinduism are manifestations of one or more of the three principal deities.  The kind of unitarian modalism that Pastor Stoffregen proposes seems perfectly compatible, with Hinduism.  Since the ELCA is moving toward universalism, I don't see any reason in principle while it could not adopt the Hindu deities into its next hymnal.  After all, if Jesus is a mediator and not the mediator, and if what is revealed in him is a revelation, but not the final revelation, for the Church, then there's no reason it can't be done.

Another way to think of the issue is to ask whether God is revealed through and in language, or whether language is a barrier to revelation.  If the latter, then one of the ways to get beyond the barrier is to either achieve mystical union, or multiply metaphors to mitigate the distortion of specific language.  Whether you agree with the solutions proposed by people like Barth and Brunner, I think they correctly diagnosed the trajectory of modern theology.  Modern theology in the end denies special revelation and would make Scripture and the Incarnation merely examples of general revelation.
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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2020, 04:24:55 PM »
Sometimes good poetry is bad theology.

Peter (I got your metaphor right here...) Garrison
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readselerttoo

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2020, 04:32:06 PM »
I realize that the Hebrew Scriptures offer images of God that have feminine attributes or at least references.  But they do not reference God as person/s directly.  Christians confess one God in three persons and three persons in one God.  The persons are directed to Father, Son and Holy Spirit not to a father, a son or a holy spirit.  The Trinity is unique and cannot be compared in analogy or even reference.  It is encounter of the person of the Father, the person of the Son Jesus and the person of the Holy Spirit.  These are unique, one-off persons uncontained by analogous reference.  You will see this in John's Gospel and the Gospel readings in Easter leading up to Pentecost Sunday.


Neither the original Greek or Hebrew of scriptures distinguished between Father and father. Hebrew doesn't have upper and lower case letters. The Greek of the uncials was all upper case (and no spaces: FATHERSONANDHOLYSPIRIT).


Being baptized into Christ's Body means access to this unique relationship.  Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the relationship that is established with us and for us.  Again, it is not a relationship like a son has with a father, although from our side that might have an influence.  But from God's side esp. in John's Gospel chapters 15-17 this unique personal relationship becomes the fount and origin of what it means to live in faith.  What your response above actually and in a partial way affirms and enhances is the unique quality of God's personal relationship with believers.

readselerttoo

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2020, 04:49:50 PM »
I need to emphasize that the issue of relationship is that the relations and oneness of the Trinity are UNIQUE.  There isn't to be found another (no matter how "like" it would be) in any other religion or human-based construction as we have it taught in family relations theory.  Science, sociology, etc. cannot define or approximate who God is for us.  Thus God's love for us is unique in this very way.  IE. God, here in Christianity, is for you and not against you in this unique relationship.  Judaism comes the closest to approximation if there was the chance for approximation to be had here....Read Romans 9-11.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 05:01:08 PM by readselerttoo »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2020, 06:30:15 PM »
Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.

Israel had several Queens by their own cultural definition.  The wife of a King who gave birth to a male heir was given the title of Queen.
You enfolded "patriarchy" into the batter, perhaps meaning to make clear that Israel had no Queens by birthright?

Interesting article on the subject:
https://www.thetorah.com/article/jewish-queens-from-the-story-of-esther-to-the-history-of-shelamzion
There are foreign queens:...

Ah, you've modified the definition.  The Queens that you listed were given the title of Queen because they were foreign born and/ornot Jewish from birth.  They were given the title of Queen ONLY because they were married to an Israelite King.  Still Queens of Israel.


Huh? Queen of Sheba was never a queen of Israel, but of Sheba. She was not married to an Israelite King. Queen Vashti was never a queen of Israel, but of the Persian Empire. She was not married to a King of Israel. She was followed by Esther. Not married to an Israelite King.


Please list where the Bible refers to the wife of an Israelite or Judean king as a queen.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2020, 06:32:41 PM »

Who is altering the language for God? As I see it, we are expanding our language to better include the multitude of biblical images for God.


Expansion is an alteration.


When I've expanded the number of worship services, I didn't alter them. There was just more of them.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2020, 06:57:06 PM »

Who is altering the language for God? As I see it, we are expanding our language to better include the multitude of biblical images for God.


Expansion is an alteration.

When I've expanded the number of worship services, I didn't alter them. There was just more of them.

Once again you play the clever 12-year-old boy.  I doubt, though, you fit in his clothes without expanding them.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2020, 07:22:01 PM »
Our Lord Jesus (who is God and is definitely a male, hence His circumcision) teaches us to pray: "Our FATHER..."  As far as I know, there is absolutely NO reference in Scripture to anyone praying to "Mother God".  At least not one who is praying to the true God.


Jesus was male.
יהוה has no gender - a proper name.
רוּחַ is a feminine noun.
θεός can be male or female (see Acts 19:37)
πνεῦμα is neuter


Do you address every prayer you ever pray to "Our Father"? Perhaps because he was quoting a psalm, Jesus prayed to "My God, my God …" from the cross.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2020, 07:23:52 PM »
We also realize that the ancient uses of these words was in a patriarchal society. Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.



How fortunate for us that we have such wise theologians who can see through the cultural bias that distorted Israel's portrait of God that they handed down to us in Scripture and filter it out without, of course, introducing any of their own cultural bias in their refined and much improved portrait of God. >:(
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2020, 07:25:33 PM »
"Begotten" is right there in the catechism and creed. As is "conceived." Not sure how much of a metaphorical Savior I really want.


The "conception" and "birth" of which you speak happened to Mary. The "conception" and "birth" in Numbers 11:12-13 is Moses' complaint that he did not conceive nor give birth to these people (and by implication, God did). Deuteronomy 32:18 talks about God "giving birth" to Israel. Motherly metaphors are used for God.
I didn’t speak of birth. I spoke of “begotten.”


Same word in Greek. Translated: "beget" when used of males; "give birth" when used of females. The OT talks about God "giving birth." That's what females do.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2020, 07:27:41 PM »
We also realize that the ancient uses of these words was in a patriarchal society. Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.



How fortunate for us that we have such wise theologians who can see through the cultural bias that distorted Israel's portrait of God that they handed down to us in Scripture and filter it out without, of course, introducing any of their own cultural bias in their refined and much improved portrait of God. >:(


They didn't distort it. We have. As I pointed out, one of the pictures handed down to us in Scripture is of God giving birth. I suggest that it's your cultural bias that is unwilling to see and use this female picture of God that has been handed down to us in Scripture.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2020, 07:38:52 PM »
We also realize that the ancient uses of these words was in a patriarchal society. Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.


How fortunate for us that we have such wise theologians who can see through the cultural bias that distorted Israel's portrait of God that they handed down to us in Scripture and filter it out without, of course, introducing any of their own cultural bias in their refined and much improved portrait of God. >:(

They didn't distort it. We have. As I pointed out, one of the pictures handed down to us in Scripture is of God giving birth. I suggest that it's your cultural bias that is unwilling to see and use this female picture of God that has been handed down to us in Scripture.

What you refer to as Pr. Fienen's "cultural bias" is called Nicene and Chalcedonian orthodoxy.  The same "cultural bias" is subscribed to  by the Lutheran Confessions and by the Confession of Faith as the ELCA.  Your cultural bias, on the other hand, is unitarian modalism, with a gnostic Christology. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2020, 08:07:44 PM »
We also realize that the ancient uses of these words was in a patriarchal society. Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.


How fortunate for us that we have such wise theologians who can see through the cultural bias that distorted Israel's portrait of God that they handed down to us in Scripture and filter it out without, of course, introducing any of their own cultural bias in their refined and much improved portrait of God. >:(

They didn't distort it. We have. As I pointed out, one of the pictures handed down to us in Scripture is of God giving birth. I suggest that it's your cultural bias that is unwilling to see and use this female picture of God that has been handed down to us in Scripture.

What you refer to as Pr. Fienen's "cultural bias" is called Nicene and Chalcedonian orthodoxy.  The same "cultural bias" is subscribed to  by the Lutheran Confessions and by the Confession of Faith as the ELCA.  Your cultural bias, on the other hand, is unitarian modalism, with a gnostic Christology.


Where in Chacedonian orthodoxy does it say that we cannot talk about God "giving birth" as scripture does? Or talk about God as a mother? I prefer the term "biblical Christianity" over your heretical terms.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2020, 08:22:12 PM »
We also realize that the ancient uses of these words was in a patriarchal society. Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.


How fortunate for us that we have such wise theologians who can see through the cultural bias that distorted Israel's portrait of God that they handed down to us in Scripture and filter it out without, of course, introducing any of their own cultural bias in their refined and much improved portrait of God. >:(

They didn't distort it. We have. As I pointed out, one of the pictures handed down to us in Scripture is of God giving birth. I suggest that it's your cultural bias that is unwilling to see and use this female picture of God that has been handed down to us in Scripture.

What you refer to as Pr. Fienen's "cultural bias" is called Nicene and Chalcedonian orthodoxy.  The same "cultural bias" is subscribed to  by the Lutheran Confessions and by the Confession of Faith as the ELCA.  Your cultural bias, on the other hand, is unitarian modalism, with a gnostic Christology.

Where in Chacedonian orthodoxy does it say that we cannot talk about God "giving birth" as scripture does? Or talk about God as a mother? I prefer the term "biblical Christianity" over your heretical terms.

Let me note first that I didn't call you a heretic.  You were the first to use that term.  And I realize that my views are heretical to you and the other "brights" of the ELCA.  (I"m also a heretic to you because I don't stick to the ELCA party line.)  However, Nicene and Chalcedonian orthodoxy is what is confessed in the Ecumenical Creeds and the Lutheran Confessions.  As a result, it is also confessed in the ELCA Constitution.  If that's heretical, then you should be honest and openly repudiate the Creeds and the Confessions and resign your call as an ELCA pastor. 

What you and the other "brights" in the ELCA should do is openly repudiate Nicene and Chalcedonian orthodoxy and make an attempt to change the ELCA Confession of Faith to reflect your true views. Better yet, you should form a new church, perhaps the Unitarian Universalist Lutheran Church.   You won't do that, however, because you want the cover of orthodoxy.  To openly reject Nicene orthodoxy would be to lose power.  That is something the "brights" in the ELCA will never do, forfeit power. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 08:34:59 PM by DCharlton »
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jebutler

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Re: ELCA prays to "Mother God"
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2020, 08:45:08 PM »
We also realize that the ancient uses of these words was in a patriarchal society. Israel did not have queens. They did not have goddesses. We wonder how much of their portrait of God was influenced by their culture.



How fortunate for us that we have such wise theologians who can see through the cultural bias that distorted Israel's portrait of God that they handed down to us in Scripture and filter it out without, of course, introducing any of their own cultural bias in their refined and much improved portrait of God. >:(


They didn't distort it. We have. As I pointed out, one of the pictures handed down to us in Scripture is of God giving birth. I suggest that it's your cultural bias that is unwilling to see and use this female picture of God that has been handed down to us in Scripture.

Brian, given your argument, do you believe it is proper to pray to "Mother Goddess"?

Can you think of anyone reason why one should not?
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis