Author Topic: A Tale of Three Dogmatics  (Read 2748 times)

readselerttoo

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2020, 01:51:35 PM »
How about this?
We in the ELCA will read some books of systematic theology published by concordia publishing house, provided we are allowed to mark up the parts we consider goofy, or rip out those pages. Or use them in the bottom of bird cages.
And you in the LCMS Can do the same with publications from Fortress press.

There are other publishers than simply the above two which cover Lutheran
Theology.  Iím thinking of some of the German publishers, eg.  https://www.vandenhoeck-ruprecht-verlage.com/

John_Hannah

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2020, 02:13:05 PM »
The ALPB is not a consensus of LCMS and ELCA positions. Itís an Evangelical Catholic/confessional Lutheran publishing movement within global Lutheranism. A dogmatics text from the ALPB would be in the vain of Bob Benne and Bob Kolb, not trying to get Pastor Austin and Pastor Bohler on the same page.

M. Staneck

A dogmatics text from the ALPB would be in the vain of Bob Benne and Bob Kolb, ADD TO THAT, Robert Jenson, Carl Braaten, Frank Senn, David Yeago, and . . . .
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2020, 02:20:05 PM »
The ALPB is not a consensus of LCMS and ELCA positions. Itís an Evangelical Catholic/confessional Lutheran publishing movement within global Lutheranism. A dogmatics text from the ALPB would be in the vain of Bob Benne and Bob Kolb, not trying to get Pastor Austin and Pastor Bohler on the same page.

M. Staneck

Thank you for articulating. 

So there is this item to overcome on the Forum online.  Many of those posting or lurking have not been catechized to the level of understanding what ALPB is - these are called "Non-Subscribers."  There would be a welcome mat laid out for ALPB in many corners of the Lutheran world - not only in this country - were ALPB to undertake a Dogmatics Compendium. 

And the participants would be of the caliber and of the evangelical/catholic vision and practice which I would argue is most needed not only among Lutherans but apologetically, ecumenically and globally.  Thanks, John for adding to the list - and there are more.  How about Sarah Hinlicky Wilson?  RD Preus, if he is as good a bartender as he used to be.  And on and on.

Dave Benke


Mark Brown

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2020, 03:07:40 PM »
Honestly, I don't understand the point of these type of books.  I've got the things on my shelves.  I occasionally take out Pieper (because it has an index!) I haven't taken CtG off the shelf since I got it and skimmed through it (JEB is correct, without an index it is worthless.)

Contrary to that, Concordia: The Confessions is rarely off my desk along with the Synodical Catechism. CPH's retranslations of Walther are all on the main shelf right behind the desk. His Pastoral Theology has been wonderful.  Even the non-Lutheran Catechism of the Catholic Church I've found to be helpful, especially its footnotes that often take you to the statements of the councils. (When the footnotes only reference Vatican 2 or later Papal encyclicals, you know the doctrine being discussed has been memory holed. If it references Lateran 4, we probably disagree and is the seeds of the Reformation. The rest usually has really good stuff.)  The closest I come to ever actually using something like this is the growing collection of Gerhard.  But even with Gerhard the way into it is usually the Scripture Index. Treating it like a less useful version of the ACCS (which is used almost daily).

They aren't dogma itself.  The right answers, even if you don't quite know why.  They don't have the have the testimony of centuries of use.  And modern ones are rarely even the honest meditation of one individual, but the mish mash of editorial teams and political through lines that could get into print. I never get over the why bother question.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2020, 03:21:45 PM »
What strikes me is this:

Maybe it's time for the American Lutheran Publicity Bureau to put together a team and publish a Lutheran Dogrmatics.   A fresh approach.  The overwhelming success of For All the Saints is the impetus.  What do you think?

Dave Benke

Find a benefactor and cc: Pastors Hannah and Sauer :)

M. Staneck

Good idea - Pastor Ed, what's an estimate of the budget for such a project?  First tier.  21st Century Lutheran Dogmatics for the World. 

Dave Benke

I offer the following counsel pro bono ecclesiae.

You can't estimate a budget until you more clearly define the project. This takes disciplined research to answer the following types of questions:

What is this book? (Scope, sequence, authorship, features?)

Who will use this book? (Not who will buy this book, which marketers will ask later.)

How will the users benefit from this book?

What would make this book uniquely needed?

What are the competing products and what do we know about their performance?

How does this book meet needs the competition does not?

Is there a fixed regular purchase point for this book? (E.g., textbook, gift book, required readership?)

What comparable products has the publisher produced? (Study actual use/sales for such a resource.)

What obstacles would prevent completion of this book and can they be overcome?

How will the publisher market this book?

To define the book effectively, you have to stay flexible while answering all these questions until you discover the combination of answers that meets the needs and has realistic potential for completion and market success.

The problem for the volumes that take 30+ years to finish is that folks got excited about building a tower before considering what it would actually take to complete the project. (See Luke 14:28.) Incomplete planning afflicted both efforts. Donations paid for those development mistakes and the costs would make you weep. I am not writing as one who saw their financials but as one who has managed such projects successfully. Bad planning is exponentially expensive.
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Dave Benke

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2020, 07:20:23 PM »
Honestly, I don't understand the point of these type of books.  I've got the things on my shelves.  I occasionally take out Pieper (because it has an index!) I haven't taken CtG off the shelf since I got it and skimmed through it (JEB is correct, without an index it is worthless.)

Contrary to that, Concordia: The Confessions is rarely off my desk along with the Synodical Catechism. CPH's retranslations of Walther are all on the main shelf right behind the desk. His Pastoral Theology has been wonderful.  Even the non-Lutheran Catechism of the Catholic Church I've found to be helpful, especially its footnotes that often take you to the statements of the councils. (When the footnotes only reference Vatican 2 or later Papal encyclicals, you know the doctrine being discussed has been memory holed. If it references Lateran 4, we probably disagree and is the seeds of the Reformation. The rest usually has really good stuff.)  The closest I come to ever actually using something like this is the growing collection of Gerhard.  But even with Gerhard the way into it is usually the Scripture Index. Treating it like a less useful version of the ACCS (which is used almost daily).

They aren't dogma itself.  The right answers, even if you don't quite know why.  They don't have the have the testimony of centuries of use.  And modern ones are rarely even the honest meditation of one individual, but the mish mash of editorial teams and political through lines that could get into print. I never get over the why bother question.


And that's why we're asking you to be a contributor.  You will assist people in bothering.  And you will market the tar out of this magnificent tome when it appears, because......you bothered.

And who are "we?"  At this point in time, that's not for you to know.  In fact, I may not even be one of "us."


Dave Benke
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 07:23:11 PM by Dave Benke »

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2020, 07:37:31 PM »
Rather than another dogmatics, consider something like Diana Butler Bass's A People's History of Christianity: The Other Side of the Story.

She patterns her book after Howard Zinn's, A People's History of the United States. She writes:

To discover how Christians imitated the life of Jesus the Prophet, I have focused on people, the known and the not so well known. Like Zinn, I sidestep issues of orthodoxy and instead focus on the moments when Christian people really acted like Christians, when they took seriously the call of Jesus to love God and love their neighbors as themselves. (p. 15)

Much of the book are brief biographies of faithful people through the ages, including Luther.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2020, 11:51:20 PM »
A dogmatics text from the ALPB would be in the vain of Bob Benne and Bob Kolb, not trying to get Pastor Austin and Pastor Bohler on the same page.


Hopefully, it would be more in the vein of Bob Benne or Bob Kolb, though if the intent were to find Pastors Austin and Bohler on the same side perhaps a vane would do better.

Pax, Steven+
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Richard Johnson

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2020, 11:54:39 PM »
And it might be in vain.
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Charles Austin

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2020, 06:06:49 AM »
Pastor Bohler and I are on the same side. But not on everything and he doesnít think so.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2020, 07:24:09 AM »
Ok. Back to the original subject. Question for the more recent pastors. Is Confessing the Gospel: A Lutheran Approach to Systematic Theology being used as a textbook?
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Matt Staneck

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2020, 08:06:05 AM »
Thatíll teach me to post on my phone!

(As I post on my phone... ;D )

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Re: A Tale of Three Dogmatics
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2020, 09:49:41 AM »
Ok. Back to the original subject. Question for the more recent pastors. Is Confessing the Gospel: A Lutheran Approach to Systematic Theology being used as a textbook?

Although I'm connecting to one of our seminaries as an adjunct, I'll admit that I'm really not sure what they use in the classroom for systematics these days.  Perhaps someone closer to that can answer - either a recent graduate, or a current professor, such as Prof. John Pless, who occasionally posts here, or maybe even Dr. Gard, although he is primarily an exegetical professor. 
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