Started by Richard Johnson, July 31, 2007, 10:03:17 PM
Quote from: Charles_Austin on August 02, 2007, 11:07:58 AM Since it is clear that the shift in interest in the BTGC is not about to be changed, and I am no longer a member, wouldn't I be making myself a little nutty if I kept hollering "Leave this flower stuff alone! Grow tomatoes and zucchinis and rutabagas!" Just wondering...
Quote from: Richard Johnson on August 02, 2007, 11:46:51 AMThis thread is about Johnson going ballistic. It is inappropriate for anyone else to go ballistic on this thread. If you want to talk about anything, talk about the significance and importance (or not) of teaching the Apostles' Creed to confirmands.
Quote from: Richard Johnson on July 31, 2007, 10:03:17 PMTonight at dinner there were eight or nine pastors sitting at our table. The discussion across the table turned to the creeds. One pastor was explaining how at their church, they don't make the confirmands memorize the Apostles' Creed. "Once in a while we pull out the Apostles' or Nicene Creeds, on high holy days. But we won't use it for confirmation Sunday." I could feel my blood pressure rising. Why is this? I asked. The reply was that the creeds have a hole in them big enough to drive a truck through (by which was meant that "there's nothing in there about Jesus's life, it just jumps from birth to death"), and what they do instead is have the confirmands (and maybe others, I was feeling a little dizzy and didn't quite follow it) "write their own creeds" which they then use in worship.
Quote from: ROB_MOSKOWITZ on August 02, 2007, 12:01:25 PMQuote from: Richard Johnson on August 02, 2007, 11:46:51 AMThis thread is about Johnson going ballistic. It is inappropriate for anyone else to go ballistic on this thread. If you want to talk about anything, talk about the significance and importance (or not) of teaching the Apostles' Creed to confirmands.Actually I think that is the point. When the people with you on your camping seemed to deny the basic faith you hold and you thought they held in the creeds, it surprised you. It surprises me to have the Church compared to garden club just as Mrs. Hesse expressed above . If faith is the basis for any sort of unity and the aspects of faith such as communion, scripture, baptism and doctrine yield deviation, conflict or disunity. Well it is a serious cause for concern. I think anger is understandable. Concern is seriously appropriate.After all you were there to share the ministry and instruct the youth. You where met with a conflicting message from those whom you assumed shared your most basic tenants.
Quote from: Mike_Bennett on August 02, 2007, 12:07:26 PMAs for "writing my own creed," heaven forbid! I still need to ponder on the Church's creed.
Quote from: Mike_Bennett on August 02, 2007, 12:07:26 PMDoes anybody know why the sketchier Apostles Creed has been the one used for catechesis?
Quote from: Mike in Maryland on August 02, 2007, 02:35:50 PMBut while the Creed is in the 1st person singular (I believe) that does not mean that it is simply one individual's statement of faith. The fact that a candidate for baptism or confirmation confesses the same Creed as the rest of the baptized means that the candidate is publicly identifying with the common confession of the whole Church. So while it may be a useful exercise for confirmation students to explore how they understand the common Creed, it is still the one Creed they confess.
Quote from: Charles_Austin on August 02, 2007, 11:07:58 AMSupposing I am a member of the Big Tomato Garden Club (BTGC). Our mission is to become better gardeners, help other people learn how to grow our beloved vegetables. We focus on tomatoes, but are also skilled at growing cabbage, zucchini and rutabagas. Over time, people say we should also concern ourselves with flowers - a valid gardening enterprise. But I - being a foodie type - am not at all interested in roses or hydrangias, and those concerns are now a key aspect of the Big Tomato Garden Club. As the focus shifts, I say "this is not why I joined the Big Tomato Garden Club, let's get back to tomatoes and zucchinis!" The club majority disagrees and continues to embrace the rose/hydrangia people.So, somewhat sadly, I pick up my trowel and hoe, and transfer my gardening activties to the Terrific Tomato Growers of Teaneck the (my fair city), and leave the flower people behind.I still like my friends in the BTGC even if I think they are no longer being true to their name. But... Should I be writing letters to the newspaper saying how "wrong" those folks in the BTGC are? Should I be telling people still in that garden club how to run their meetings or what their concerns should be? Wouldn't that be an imposition, not to mention a waste of my time. Wouldn't that keep me from my new garden mission with the TTGT? Since it is clear that the shift in interest in the BTGC is not about to be changed, and I am no longer a member, wouldn't I be making myself a little nutty if I kept hollering "Leave this flower stuff alone! Grow tomatoes and zucchinis and rutabagas!" Oh, and by the way, both clubs are friendly, active members of the New Jersey Federation of Garden Enthusiasts. Just wondering...
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 02, 2007, 01:41:16 PMI'll offer my guess. The Nicene Creed is the Creed of the Church. It came out of a church controversy and created and revised by a church committee and is a statement of what we believe.The Apostles' Creed, which took a long time to be formed into its final wording, perhaps 700 years, was a confession of individuals about to be baptized. Thus the "I believe" language. It has remained connected to baptism, and catechesis, which originally led to baptism, now, more often than not, leads to affirmation of baptism, has kept that connection.