Johnson Goes Ballistic

[Richard Johnson]

Now can we stop this?

All those in favor? OK, the ayes have it.

Would those ayes be the ones to say ICBM?

(I'll admit it. My mind works in weird ways.)

Apparently so, since I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean.

[Brian Stoffregen]

Now can we stop this?

All those in favor? OK, the ayes have it.

Would those ayes be the ones to say ICBM?

(I'll admit it. My mind works in weird ways.)

Apparently so, since I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean.

Just offering a few puns only related to this meeting by words I'm playing with.

ayes = eyes
IC = I see
BM = ballistic missiles.

(ICBM is the abreviation for intercontinental ballistic missile.)

[peter_speckhard]

The chair will receive Brian's claim that his mind works in strange ways as a friendly amemdment needing no further debate or vote.

[ptmccain]

I move adoption by unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman.

[scott3]

Point of Order: Wasn't that adopted a few years ago?

[ptmccain]

I believe the gentleman meant to raise a "Point of Information"

And, in light of it, I withdraw my motion.

[scott3]

Gosh durn it -- there goes my campaign for synodical president...

[Keith Falk]

I'm glad Pr. Johnson went ballistic.  Having just come home from a week of volunteering as a "camp pastor", his experience is certainly not unusual (just see comments by other pastors).  However, what I experienced was that the leadership of the camp staff were concerned about the pastors who had come during the summer.  In fact, one of the directors asked me about the creeds... because pastors who were present during confirmation camp expressed their disbelief in aspects of the creeds.  I was one of the few who told her that I fully and wholly support, believe, teach, and preach the creeds.  Also, no other pastors used any part of the Small Catechism or any other part of the Confessions during the staff training (pastors are invited to teach/lead Bible studies for the staff... I incorporated Luther's explanation of the Third Article of the Apostles' Creed to talk about faith as gift).  I could go on and on about why camps, at least church camps in Ohio, run things and teach the way they do... but I think that's enough.

[Gary Schnitkey]

I am a bit befuddled by Mr. Johnson's response.  I don't know why he would expect creeds to be used at all.  The ELCA has (is) conducting a sexuality study based more on recent "scientific findings" than on scriptures or Christian tradition.  The presiding bishop and others ponder the moral equivalence of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  The ELCA is in common ministry with several other denominations that would have had historical different beliefs from Lutherans.  Recent graduates of Lutheran seminaries are steeped in post-modernism, which would posit that the creeds are one viewpoint and likely further assert that they only represents a white, male perspective.

Why would creeds be important in this environment?

[Pr. Jerry]

I am a bit befuddled by Mr. Johnson's response.  I don't know why he would expect creeds to be used at all.  The ELCA has (is) conducting a sexuality study based more on recent "scientific findings" than on scriptures or Christian tradition.  The presiding bishop and others ponder the moral equivalence of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  The ELCA is in common ministry with several other denominations that would have had historical different beliefs from Lutherans.  Recent graduates of Lutheran seminaries are steeped in post-modernism, which would posit that the creeds are one viewpoint and likely further assert that they only represents a white, male perspective.

Why would creeds be important in this environment?

I understand and appreciate the comments, but the reality is that some of us ARE fighting the good fight for soul of the ELCA...  It is maddening that all these things you assert are true, even as the ELCA has proven the LC-MS's assertion that we are not an orthodox Lutheran denomination correct at every turn.  And yet, though the wider denomination is guilty of all these things, please always remember that there are those who choose to stay and fight the good fight of faith rather than flee or remain silent in the face of faithlessness. 

Which, to answer your question, is why the Creeds are the most important precisely in this type of environment, even if the powers-that-be fail to recognize it to be true.   The Creeds combat and curb heresy, they are needed most urgently where orthodoxy is under siege...

But, as you remind us, don't expect the Arians, gnostics, and other heretics to appreciate them! 

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[mchristi]

I am a bit befuddled by Mr. Johnson's response.  I don't know why he would expect creeds to be used at all.  The ELCA has (is) conducting a sexuality study based more on recent "scientific findings" than on scriptures or Christian tradition.  The presiding bishop and others ponder the moral equivalence of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  The ELCA is in common ministry with several other denominations that would have had historical different beliefs from Lutherans.  Recent graduates of Lutheran seminaries are steeped in post-modernism, which would posit that the creeds are one viewpoint and likely further assert that they only represents a white, male perspective.

Why would creeds be important in this environment?

Why would the creeds be important?  Well, because the faith they confess is the faith we believe, the faith we proclaim.  And, yes, this is even true of a good many who you might include in your criticisms above.  This is even true of many who some may suggest are "steeped in post-modernism" (which remains a quite indistinct term).  Richard's response doesn't befuddle me.  I think he's right on to respond that way.  And while I'm not surprised that he ran across pastors who spend little to no time on the creeds and don't use them in worship, etc., I am rather befuddled by them instead.

Mark C.

[Gary Schnitkey]

Why would the creeds be important?  Well, because the faith they confess is the faith we believe, the faith we proclaim.  And, yes, this is even true of a good many who you might include in your criticisms above.  This is even true of many who some may suggest are "steeped in post-modernism" (which remains a quite indistinct term).  Richard's response doesn't befuddle me.  I think he's right on to respond that way.  And while I'm not surprised that he ran across pastors who spend little to no time on the creeds and don't use them in worship, etc., I am rather befuddled by them instead.

Mark C.

The list I provided is a list of facts.  There are no criticisms or moral judgments made.  You are free to refute those facts if you like.

Given those facts, it is hard for me to see why Pastors, particularly those that have a post-modern orientation, would emphasize creeds.  This again is not a criticism.  It is a matter of orientation.  If you are post-modern, an enunciation of what is common in belief is not important.  It is more important in what you believe, hence an exercise in which a person writes his/her own creed is a valid activity.

From a more orthodox perspective, I don't have much problem with anyone writing his/her own creed.  Some good may come of it.  Writing one's own creed would force a person to think about their faith in a different way than reciting a standard creed.  It is another teaching method.

For your information, I am not much of a believer in post-modernism.  But it has been articulate by a number of intelligent people and there is a grain of truth to its suppositions.  It certainly is not necessarily evil, although its implications may not be good. Post-modernism will lead to a totally different orientation than more traditional/orthodox approaches, as can be seen in the ELCA today.

[djbaer]

Amen to all that has been said affirming Richard's ballistic response. Would that others in the ELCA would defend its teaching.

I so often wish that the ELCA read the other parts of "Vision and Expectations."  There is some great material there regarding faithfulness to creeds and confessions.

Here are a couple examples:

It is essential for an ordained minister to be able to understand and faithfully interpret the Scriptures and the Christian tradition. In this question the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America asks that its ordained ministers assume responsibility for upholding this church's doctrinal tradition through faithful preaching and teaching. All who have been ordained and who serve as pastors in this church are expected to accept and adhere to the Confession of Faith of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. . . .

The ecumenical creeds are to be taught as true declarations of the faith of this church. The Lutheran Confessions are to be acknowledged as true witnesses and faithful expositions of the Holy Scriptures.

In identifying specific documents as normative for preaching and teaching, this church expects its ordained ministers to understand that the faith of the Church is corporate, not individualistic; catholic, not sectarian; orthodox, not heretical. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America expects that its ordained ministers teach nothing "that departs from the Scriptures or the catholic church" (Conclusion to the Augsburg Confession).

You can read all of V & E at http://www.elca.org/assembly/votingmatters/VisionandExpectations.pdf

[mchristi]

If you are post-modern, an enunciation of what is common in belief is not important.

Why?  (This question is getting at what it supposedly means to be "post-modern")

Mark C.

[Gary Schnitkey]

If you are post-modern, an enunciation of what is common in belief is not important.

Why?  (This question is getting at what it supposedly means to be "post-modern")

Mark C.

Post-modern does not posit a strict reality, only in perceptions of what is.  Each person will have his/her own perception, with language, society, and a person's experiences play a role in that perception.  I suppose hallmarks of post-modernism are its tolerance, acceptance, and non-judgment of other viewpoints. 

In a post-modern world, a creed could serve as a consensus of people's viewpoints but there would be nothing stable to that consensus.  It could change as people change their minds or as other people join the group. 

I simply have hard time seeing the usefulness of a creed in a post-modern world.