Johnson Goes Ballistic

[bmj]

One pastor was explaining how at their church, they don't make the confirmands memorize the Apostles' Creed. "Once in a while we pull out the Apostles' or Nicene Creeds, on high holy days. But we won't use it for confirmation Sunday."

I just took a late night (actually very early morning) walk over to my office to check and found that the Apostles' Creed is part of the profession of faith in the Affirmation of Baptism rite in ELW.  I have no idea just what the confirmands will affirm if they will not use the creed on confirmation Sunday.  I must really be behind the times.

Mel Harris

You are not behind the times Mel.  Keep the Faith.  For what it is worth, my 7 year old daughter insists on saying the Apostles Creed every night as part of bedtime prayers.  My 4 year old "parrots" most of it along with her.  I also cannot image confirmands not being taught the creeds, both the words and the meaning.  These creeds also are one of the strongest points of unity and ecumenical agreement with other parts of the Body of Christ.

[mchristi]

I think your going ballistic is justified, Richard.  I cannot fathom a confirmation program that will end in a rite we now call "affirmation of faith" without learning or, for that matter, drinking deeply of the creed.  Sure, I think I'd rather pointedly say, it skips from birth to death, but what does that have to do with it?  Dig down into that story between, but the creed, not to mention the scriptures about the death and resurrection, provides a framework in which we understand that story.  I think it's worth going ballistic about.  If anything, it should make an impression that these things should be really important.

Mark C.

[Gladfelteri]

One wonders why pastors who do not regard the Apostles' Creed as important enough for children to memorize bother to be pastors at all.

No kidding!! 

[Charles_Austin]

Rob Moskowitz writes about the ELCA:
Why was the Apostles Creed such a mile stone when so much of the Christian faith has been tacitly denied already?

I comment:
But you are no longer a pastor in the ELCA. If you left for reasons of conscience, you have made a choice, presumably with integrity, but is it really healthy to keep lobbing grenades at us from afar?

[ROB_MOSKOWITZ]

Rob Moskowitz writes about the ELCA:
Why was the Apostles Creed such a mile stone when so much of the Christian faith has been tacitly denied already?

I comment:
But you are no longer a pastor in the ELCA. If you left for reasons of conscience, you have made a choice, presumably with integrity, but is it really healthy to keep lobbing grenades at us from afar?

Did I say was talking about the ELCA? 

As for reasons of concience, making choices and integrety I think that is indeed what is being talked about. 

Do you mean granades like calling folks  "suspect", "Pastor with hostility", "hijacked", "ill-advised or intentionally ignored procedures ", "to alienate the church from the ELCA".    Those kind of granades?

Rob Moskowitz

[Charles_Austin]

Those of us in the ELCA, trying to work out our ministries in concert with our fellow members of the ELCA, often have disagreements, sometimes serious ones. We may handle those disagreements in various ways. We don't always do it well, but we are doing it within the context of our church fellowship and our common mission with one another.

I understand that some have left the ELCA for matters of conscience; and I respect the decision. But I wonder if it is fair or healthy for such people, who have left our circles, to persist in their understandably angry criticisms of the church body they have left. I don't see how that helps anyone. It would seem to me that they have forfeited their "standing" to be involved in the internal ELCA discussion and it would seem to me that continuing to focus on the church body they have left delays their own adjustment to whatever new ministry they are pursuing.

[ROB_MOSKOWITZ]

Those of us in the ELCA, trying to work out our ministries in concert with our fellow members of the ELCA, often have disagreements, sometimes serious ones. We may handle those disagreements in various ways. We don't always do it well, but we are doing it within the context of our church fellowship and our common mission with one another.

Did I say I was taking about the ELCA?

I understand that some have left the ELCA for matters of conscience; and I respect the decision. But I wonder if it is fair or healthy for such people, who have left our circles, to persist in their understandably angry criticisms of the church body they have left. I don't see how that helps anyone. It would seem to me that they have forfeited their "standing"

"angry criticisms" , "forfeited their "standing"  I think this may be the Hostility thing?

to be involved in the internal ELCA discussion and it would seem to me that continuing to focus on the church body they have left delays their own adjustment to whatever new ministry they are pursuing.

Again I dont think I saw where this was labelled an ELCA thread?  I count 1,2,3,4 Lutheran entities represented? 

Are you trying to say something to me Charles?

Rob Moskowitz

[Charles_Austin]

Rob Moskowitz writes:
Are you trying to say something to me Charles?

I respond:
Yes.

[Mel Harris]

Those of us in the ELCA, trying to work out our ministries in concert with our fellow members of the ELCA, often have disagreements, sometimes serious ones. We may handle those disagreements in various ways. We don't always do it well, but we are doing it within the context of our church fellowship and our common mission with one another.

Something like this has come up before.

Mel Harris wrote:

(I somehow doubt that Pastor Austin meant to suggest that we in the ELCA should only take into consideration the ideas and opinions of other members of the ELCA and of members of church bodies with which we are in "Full Communion".)

I comment:
That's not quite what I meant, but I do believe that there are matters that the ELCA needs to discuss on its own terms and involving those with whom we are most closely partnered in mission and ministry.

I continue to appreciate the comments of other Lutherans, and take them into consideration.  Pastor Austin apparently continues to disagree with me on this.

Mel Harris

[Maryland Brian]

I understand that some have left the ELCA for matters of conscience; and I respect the decision. But I wonder if it is fair or healthy for such people, who have left our circles, to persist in their understandably angry criticisms of the church body they have left. I don't see how that helps anyone. It would seem to me that they have forfeited their "standing" to be involved in the internal ELCA discussion and it would seem to me that continuing to focus on the church body they have left delays their own adjustment to whatever new ministry they are pursuing.

  Uh ... comments on a Blog are, IMHO, what they are:  comments left by individuals who enjoy conversation.  This Blog, as well run as it is, is *not* part of any sort of official process in the ELCA.  It is simply a public gathering of people who like to type and leave prose.

  Perhaps some of the comments are coming from a place of grief.  Perhaps some of the comments are coming from a sense of guilt, having left their orthodox congregations behind and are having trouble letting go.  Perhaps they feel a need to continue to remind others of the reasons why they have left ... so that others who may think and feel the same way while still inside the ELCA will not think themselves crazy.  I don't ever presume to understand another's motivations unless they are sufficiently self-aware that they can share them with me in ways that a communication event happened.

BTW, maybe I just come at it differently. I dont' see these individuals as having "left our circles."  They are still members in the Body of Christ and I fully expect, by God's Grace, to spend all eternity with them.  Might as well get to know them now ...

MD Brian

[frluther1517]

Those of us in the ELCA, trying to work out our ministries in concert with our fellow members of the ELCA, often have disagreements, sometimes serious ones. We may handle those disagreements in various ways. We don't always do it well, but we are doing it within the context of our church fellowship and our common mission with one another.

I understand that some have left the ELCA for matters of conscience; and I respect the decision. But I wonder if it is fair or healthy for such people, who have left our circles, to persist in their understandably angry criticisms of the church body they have left. I don't see how that helps anyone. It would seem to me that they have forfeited their "standing" to be involved in the internal ELCA discussion and it would seem to me that continuing to focus on the church body they have left delays their own adjustment to whatever new ministry they are pursuing.

I too disagree with Pr. Austin here.  Is this not an intergral part of ecumencial dialogue/intra-Lutheran discussions?  Shouldn't fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, if they see us in err, seek to tell us and desire our return to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic?  Isn't this fundamental to building relationships across the Body of Christ?  I think it is actually quite uncharitable to expect people to leave and shut-up.  It seems to me to be a sin to silence the voices of those who even though may have departed the ELCA, still care about her and her members.  I would supose that those who have left and found refuge in another branch in the Body of Christ still care about the denomination they have left.  IMHO the true goal and work of ecumenical relationships to work towards unity in a way where we care so much about the other that we will hold the mirror of the law in one another's face and be just as quick to proclaim a word of Gospel.  It seems to me that this is exactly what Rob is doing.  (Even though as he rightly notes he never mentioned the ELCA)

Pr. Ian Wolfe

[Charles_Austin]

Supposing I am a member of the Big Tomato Garden Club (BTGC). Our mission is to become better gardeners, help other people learn how to grow our beloved vegetables. We focus on tomatoes, but are also skilled at growing cabbage, zucchini and rutabagas. Over time, people say we should also concern ourselves with flowers - a valid gardening enterprise. But I - being a foodie type - am not at all interested in roses or hydrangias, and those concerns are now a key aspect of the Big Tomato Garden Club. As the focus shifts, I say "this is not why I joined the Big Tomato Garden Club, let's get back to tomatoes and zucchinis!" The club majority disagrees and continues to embrace the rose/hydrangia people.
So, somewhat sadly, I pick up my trowel and hoe, and transfer my gardening activties to the Terrific Tomato Growers of Teaneck the (my fair city), and leave the flower people behind.
I still like my friends in the BTGC even if I think they are no longer being true to their name.
But... Should I be writing letters to the newspaper saying how "wrong" those folks in the BTGC are? Should I be telling people still in that garden club how to run their meetings or what their concerns should be? Wouldn't that be an imposition, not to mention a waste of my time. Wouldn't that keep me from my new garden mission with the TTGT? Since it is clear that the shift in interest in the BTGC is not about to be changed, and I am no longer a member, wouldn't I be making myself a little nutty if I kept hollering "Leave this flower stuff alone! Grow tomatoes and zucchinis and rutabagas!"
Oh, and by the way, both clubs are friendly, active members of the New Jersey Federation of Garden Enthusiasts.
Just wondering...

[Brian Stoffregen]

These creeds also are one of the strongest points of unity and ecumenical agreement with other parts of the Body of Christ.

Until discussions about which translation we should use. It seems that the things God has given to unite us are precisely the things that are most devisive among Christians such as: baptism, communion, Lord's Prayer, scriptures, creeds.

[ROB_MOSKOWITZ]

These creeds also are one of the strongest points of unity and ecumenical agreement with other parts of the Body of Christ.

Until discussions about which translation we should use. It seems that the things God has given to unite us are precisely the things that are most devisive among Christians such as: baptism, communion, Lord's Prayer, scriptures, creeds.

Perhaps because the discussion of these things brings to light questions of faith in God and thus serve not to cause unity or disunity but show which already exists, not based upon human agreement but upon existing faith.    As confessions clearly state faith is not mearly knowlege and communion is not a basis for unity.   Faith is.

Rob Moskowitz

[ROB_MOSKOWITZ]

Supposing I am a member of the Big Tomato Garden Club (BTGC). Our mission is to become better gardeners, help other people learn how to grow our beloved vegetables. We focus on tomatoes, but are also skilled at growing cabbage, zucchini and rutabagas. Over time, people say we should also concern ourselves with flowers - a valid gardening enterprise. But I - being a foodie type - am not at all interested in roses or hydrangias, and those concerns are now a key aspect of the Big Tomato Garden Club. As the focus shifts, I say "this is not why I joined the Big Tomato Garden Club, let's get back to tomatoes and zucchinis!" The club majority disagrees and continues to embrace the rose/hydrangia people.
So, somewhat sadly, I pick up my trowel and hoe, and transfer my gardening activties to the Terrific Tomato Growers of Teaneck the (my fair city), and leave the flower people behind.
I still like my friends in the BTGC even if I think they are no longer being true to their name.
But... Should I be writing letters to the newspaper saying how "wrong" those folks in the BTGC are? Should I be telling people still in that garden club how to run their meetings or what their concerns should be? Wouldn't that be an imposition, not to mention a waste of my time. Wouldn't that keep me from my new garden mission with the TTGT? Since it is clear that the shift in interest in the BTGC is not about to be changed, and I am no longer a member, wouldn't I be making myself a little nutty if I kept hollering "Leave this flower stuff alone! Grow tomatoes and zucchinis and rutabagas!"
Oh, and by the way, both clubs are friendly, active members of the New Jersey Federation of Garden Enthusiasts.
Just wondering...

So are you saying denominations are just clubs? 

Sounds like a highly fertilized comparison.     

Rob Moskowitz