Author Topic: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?  (Read 45277 times)

aletheist

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #480 on: April 11, 2020, 04:19:52 PM »
And, again, no one has denied God's presence in the gathering of Christians.  What you insist on doing, though, is confusing THAT presence with His sacramental presence.  And they are not the same.
How are they different? Is it a different Jesus?
Surely you already know the answer--same Jesus, different modes of presence.  "I am with you always" vs. "where two are three are gathered" vs. "this is my body ... this is my blood."

This doesn't mean that the Presence and the benefits are not there when you feel nothing; but sometimes, uncontrolled by us, feelings are there.
Which is precisely why we rely on Christ's objective Word of promise, rather than our subjective feelings, when ascertaining whether the sacramental presence and benefits are there.
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"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #481 on: April 11, 2020, 04:21:31 PM »
P.S. A friend who is only slightly "churched," but attends during Holy Week and Easter was really down about not going to services on Holy Thursday this week. But she discovered a church doing the "virtual communion," and told me the service and receiving that way at home (wine and some French bread) was a truly valuable help to her.

We do not do theology by anecdote, do we?  Or, if you want to play that game, then are those anecdotes about how telecommunion has a negative impact on a person/church not as worthy as this one?


Jesus did theology by parables. The Gospels are anecdotes (= "a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person") Much Old Testament are anecdotes. I am certain that these biblical stories are conveying theology.

1. A parable is not an anecdote.  Boy, as the expert exegete, I would think you would be aware of that.

2. The Gospels (or any other Scriptural writing) are NOT mere anecdotes. Or, if you wish to call them such, then they are anecdotes told by God.  I do not think Rev. Austin's little story was divinely inspired as were the evangelists.  Of course, who knows what you think.  You are the one who wants to put your sermons on the same level of inspiration as St. Matthew or St. Paul.

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #482 on: April 11, 2020, 04:25:51 PM »
And, again, no one has denied God's presence in the gathering of Christians.  What you insist on doing, though, is confusing THAT presence with His sacramental presence.  And they are not the same.


How are they different? Is it a different Jesus?

Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know this?  Jesus is present in the Sacrament with His Body and Blood.  He is present, but not with His Body and Blood, in the gathering of believers.  His Body and Blood are found only there, in the Supper.  Not where two or three are simply gathered in His name.  Or in the preaching of His Word.  Or in the absolution.  Or any number of other things.  He is there in them, to be sure, but not His Body and Blood.  That alone is in the Supper.  So, when a pastor preaches, that is Christ preaching -- but not Christ in His Body and Blood.  When the pastor absolves, again Christ is there, doing the forgiving -- but not His Body and Blood.  And when the ladies aid gathers, Christ is also there -- but not His Body and Blood.  Do you see the difference?  My goodness, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to know this.


Did you miss my comment about bodily presence?


How can there be forgiveness in our gathering and absolution if Christ's blood is not there. It was the blood of the sacrifice that brought forgiveness in the Old Testament. When two or three are gathered in Jesus name, they are the body of Christ. It is present.


To throw in another wrinkle, there are no promises of body and blood present in baptism. Yet, we consider that a sacrament - a special way that Christ is present through his Word and water. We are assured through that sign that Christ is fulfilling his promises that we died with him and are raised to new life with him as children of God, born from above, born of water and Spirit.


Is Christ's presence in the sacrament of baptism different than in our gathering? Different from the sacrament of communion? Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that the bodies we are required to have for eternity after our resurrections have to be different than the bodies we have during our temporary time on earth.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #483 on: April 11, 2020, 04:31:24 PM »
And, again, no one has denied God's presence in the gathering of Christians.  What you insist on doing, though, is confusing THAT presence with His sacramental presence.  And they are not the same.


How are they different? Is it a different Jesus?

Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know this?  Jesus is present in the Sacrament with His Body and Blood.  He is present, but not with His Body and Blood, in the gathering of believers.  His Body and Blood are found only there, in the Supper.  Not where two or three are simply gathered in His name.  Or in the preaching of His Word.  Or in the absolution.  Or any number of other things.  He is there in them, to be sure, but not His Body and Blood.  That alone is in the Supper.  So, when a pastor preaches, that is Christ preaching -- but not Christ in His Body and Blood.  When the pastor absolves, again Christ is there, doing the forgiving -- but not His Body and Blood.  And when the ladies aid gathers, Christ is also there -- but not His Body and Blood.  Do you see the difference?  My goodness, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to know this.


Did you miss my comment about bodily presence?


How can there be forgiveness in our gathering and absolution if Christ's blood is not there. It was the blood of the sacrifice that brought forgiveness in the Old Testament. When two or three are gathered in Jesus name, they are the body of Christ. It is present.


To throw in another wrinkle, there are no promises of body and blood present in baptism. Yet, we consider that a sacrament - a special way that Christ is present through his Word and water. We are assured through that sign that Christ is fulfilling his promises that we died with him and are raised to new life with him as children of God, born from above, born of water and Spirit.


Is Christ's presence in the sacrament of baptism different than in our gathering? Different from the sacrament of communion? Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that the bodies we are required to have for eternity after our resurrections have to be different than the bodies we have during our temporary time on earth.

I can see why you have no problem with altar fellowship with the Reformed.  Again, though, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to understand these things.

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #484 on: April 11, 2020, 04:33:03 PM »
P.S. A friend who is only slightly "churched," but attends during Holy Week and Easter was really down about not going to services on Holy Thursday this week. But she discovered a church doing the "virtual communion," and told me the service and receiving that way at home (wine and some French bread) was a truly valuable help to her.

We do not do theology by anecdote, do we?  Or, if you want to play that game, then are those anecdotes about how telecommunion has a negative impact on a person/church not as worthy as this one?


Jesus did theology by parables. The Gospels are anecdotes (= "a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person") Much Old Testament are anecdotes. I am certain that these biblical stories are conveying theology.

1. A parable is not an anecdote.  Boy, as the expert exegete, I would think you would be aware of that.


Did I say that it was? Boy, as someone with a college degree, I would think you would be able to read better than you did.

Quote
2. The Gospels (or any other Scriptural writing) are NOT mere anecdotes. Or, if you wish to call them such, then they are anecdotes told by God.  I do not think Rev. Austin's little story was divinely inspired as were the evangelists.  Of course, who knows what you think.  You are the one who wants to put your sermons on the same level of inspiration as St. Matthew or St. Paul.


According to you, Matthew didn't really write the Gospel, God did. Paul didn't really write his letters, God did.


I have to admit, it is I who wrote everyone of my sermons. I studied the text. I sat at the keyboard. I typed out the words. (Often deleting some and rewriting others.) In my way of thinking, Matthew, Paul, and all the others, did the same thing I did (albeit, without a typewriter or computer). They used the best of their abilities to convey the truths of the stories they had been given.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #485 on: April 11, 2020, 04:34:27 PM »
And, again, no one has denied God's presence in the gathering of Christians.  What you insist on doing, though, is confusing THAT presence with His sacramental presence.  And they are not the same.


How are they different? Is it a different Jesus?

Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know this?  Jesus is present in the Sacrament with His Body and Blood.  He is present, but not with His Body and Blood, in the gathering of believers.  His Body and Blood are found only there, in the Supper.  Not where two or three are simply gathered in His name.  Or in the preaching of His Word.  Or in the absolution.  Or any number of other things.  He is there in them, to be sure, but not His Body and Blood.  That alone is in the Supper.  So, when a pastor preaches, that is Christ preaching -- but not Christ in His Body and Blood.  When the pastor absolves, again Christ is there, doing the forgiving -- but not His Body and Blood.  And when the ladies aid gathers, Christ is also there -- but not His Body and Blood.  Do you see the difference?  My goodness, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to know this.


Did you miss my comment about bodily presence?


How can there be forgiveness in our gathering and absolution if Christ's blood is not there. It was the blood of the sacrifice that brought forgiveness in the Old Testament. When two or three are gathered in Jesus name, they are the body of Christ. It is present.


To throw in another wrinkle, there are no promises of body and blood present in baptism. Yet, we consider that a sacrament - a special way that Christ is present through his Word and water. We are assured through that sign that Christ is fulfilling his promises that we died with him and are raised to new life with him as children of God, born from above, born of water and Spirit.


Is Christ's presence in the sacrament of baptism different than in our gathering? Different from the sacrament of communion? Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that the bodies we are required to have for eternity after our resurrections have to be different than the bodies we have during our temporary time on earth.

I can see why you have no problem with altar fellowship with the Reformed.  Again, though, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to understand these things.


I see that you avoided all of my questions to you and just attacked me. Apparently, a seminary graduate has no answers for my questions.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #486 on: April 11, 2020, 05:02:51 PM »
And, again, no one has denied God's presence in the gathering of Christians.  What you insist on doing, though, is confusing THAT presence with His sacramental presence.  And they are not the same.


How are they different? Is it a different Jesus?

Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know this?  Jesus is present in the Sacrament with His Body and Blood.  He is present, but not with His Body and Blood, in the gathering of believers.  His Body and Blood are found only there, in the Supper.  Not where two or three are simply gathered in His name.  Or in the preaching of His Word.  Or in the absolution.  Or any number of other things.  He is there in them, to be sure, but not His Body and Blood.  That alone is in the Supper.  So, when a pastor preaches, that is Christ preaching -- but not Christ in His Body and Blood.  When the pastor absolves, again Christ is there, doing the forgiving -- but not His Body and Blood.  And when the ladies aid gathers, Christ is also there -- but not His Body and Blood.  Do you see the difference?  My goodness, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to know this.


Did you miss my comment about bodily presence?


How can there be forgiveness in our gathering and absolution if Christ's blood is not there. It was the blood of the sacrifice that brought forgiveness in the Old Testament. When two or three are gathered in Jesus name, they are the body of Christ. It is present.


To throw in another wrinkle, there are no promises of body and blood present in baptism. Yet, we consider that a sacrament - a special way that Christ is present through his Word and water. We are assured through that sign that Christ is fulfilling his promises that we died with him and are raised to new life with him as children of God, born from above, born of water and Spirit.


Is Christ's presence in the sacrament of baptism different than in our gathering? Different from the sacrament of communion? Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that the bodies we are required to have for eternity after our resurrections have to be different than the bodies we have during our temporary time on earth.

I can see why you have no problem with altar fellowship with the Reformed.  Again, though, I would expect a first-year Lutheran seminarian to understand these things.


I see that you avoided all of my questions to you and just attacked me. Apparently, a seminary graduate has no answers for my questions.

I did not realize that you were serious with those questions.  OK.  You want to equate Christ's presence in the Supper with His other modes of presence.  That is not Lutheran.  As I (and others) have said umpteen times already, His presence in the Supper is unique.  If this is new to you, I suggest reading Pieper's Christian Dogmatics Vol II, pp.191ff where he discusses this.  There is your first-year seminarian homework.

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #487 on: April 11, 2020, 05:05:42 PM »
Oh, and Pieper discusses the similarities and differences between the various Means of Grace in Vol. III, pp. 103ff.  That can be your second homework assignment.

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #488 on: April 11, 2020, 05:38:14 PM »
Oh, and Pieper discusses the similarities and differences between the various Means of Grace in Vol. III, pp. 103ff.  That can be your second homework assignment.
How about the Formula? That should be sufficient to put any of these questions to bed.

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #489 on: April 11, 2020, 07:45:10 PM »
I did not realize that you were serious with those questions.  OK.  You want to equate Christ's presence in the Supper with His other modes of presence.


No, I have not done that.



Quote
That is not Lutheran.  As I (and others) have said umpteen times already, His presence in the Supper is unique.


I have said that. There is a bodily presence in communion that is not found in the other special ways Christ is present. I even used the analogy of marriage where there is a bodily love that is not to be present with the other people the couple may love.


I talked about the tangible presence in the sacraments that include elements we can touch and taste and smell. That is  different than the other special presence of Christ in the Word that is heard or the gathered community in his name or his promise to be with us always.


I can talk about receiving Christ through our mouths in the sacrament, rather than through our ears as we hear the Word or our eyes as we read the Word. Christ's presence as we gather is not so much about him entering into us through mouth, eyes, or ears, but being present none the less.

At the same time that there are these differences, it is the same Jesus Christ who is present with us always and with us in the special ways through the promises that include the sacraments.


Quote
If this is new to you, I suggest reading Pieper's Christian Dogmatics Vol II, pp.191ff where he discusses this.  There is your first-year seminarian homework.

Why? He was not a theologian we studied or read during any of my years at seminary in the ALC. He is not an authority for us. I took as many biblical classes as I could (and even taught some). That is the authority for all Christians.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 07:57:36 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #490 on: April 11, 2020, 07:49:57 PM »
Oh, and Pieper discusses the similarities and differences between the various Means of Grace in Vol. III, pp. 103ff.  That can be your second homework assignment.
How about the Formula? That should be sufficient to put any of these questions to bed.


It would be helpful to agree on the questions.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #491 on: April 11, 2020, 08:06:13 PM »
This prayer composed by St. Alphonsus Liguori in the 18th century is prayed at each Mass at my husband's congregation:

My Jesus, I believe that you are present in the most Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things and I desire to receive You into my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there, and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You. Amen.

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #492 on: April 12, 2020, 02:06:08 PM »
Very interesting discussion between Sarah Hinlicky Wilson and Paul Hinlicky about "virtual communion" on their podcast "Queen of the Sciences" which I think you can access at https://www.sarahhinlickywilson.com/podcast.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #493 on: April 12, 2020, 02:39:16 PM »
Very interesting discussion between Sarah Hinlicky Wilson and Paul Hinlicky about "virtual communion" on their podcast "Queen of the Sciences" which I think you can access at https://www.sarahhinlickywilson.com/podcast.

Thanks for this - actual family dialog on doctrine and practice!

Dave Benke

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #494 on: April 12, 2020, 05:47:45 PM »
Very interesting discussion between Sarah Hinlicky Wilson and Paul Hinlicky about "virtual communion" on their podcast "Queen of the Sciences" which I think you can access at https://www.sarahhinlickywilson.com/podcast.

Thanks for this - actual family dialog on doctrine and practice!

Dave Benke

Yeah, it's always interesting. And I love how she characterizes it: "Conversations between a theologian and her father"!
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