Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?

[peter_speckhard]

I do think it is important that we do not take up the disagreement in the time of crisis, in the heat of the battle, so to speak, as long as everyone understands that these things must be taken up with all seriousness when things settle down. They can't just be acknowledged in some token way and then shrugged off with, "Hey, it was an extraordinary circumstance, and the time has come to move on, why bring up divisive things when there is no reason for it right now, etc."

In the internet era, there is no "contextual" difference. People watch your services from all around the the country and world. Everything an LCMS congregation does is thereby, in real time, declared to all LCMS people, in and out of that context, to be acceptable LCMS practice. I've already gotten emails about yesterday; "Hey, I saw one congregation just did communion with everyone in their houses. Why can't we do that?" That leaves me in the position of either saying we can (which isn't true), or those people were wrong to do that (but again, this isn't the time to focus on that kind of problem with so much else that is pressing and extraordinary going on), or that we could do that but we aren't going to, just because. That puts me in a tough position, all so that people in San Antonio or this or that other place don't have to do what virtually everyone else is doing, which is making do with services of the Word and/or individual rather than corporate communion.

This dynamic is key to the LCMS. People treat it as the church. If you're doing it, you're declaring it acceptable practice in the LCMS, and you're declaring that to anyone with access to a search engine. Please bear that in mind.

In my case, I had/have a strong inclination to continue offering services to anyone who would come. But when that position feel so far into the minority, I decided it would be uncharitable, and not merely to my members who might feel obligated against their better judgment to go out despite the warnings. It would be a silent accusation against the churches in the area that closed. I'd be putting every pastor in the position of defending his decision to suspend gatherings for worship in light of the fact that St. Paul's was open. Not helpful.

So right now might not be the time to sort out all the whys and wherefores of online communion practice, although I think we've had some extremely helpful discussion of that topic in this forum. But it definitely is time to remember that context is out the window, and to make decisions bearing in mind that you're preaching/teaching/leading worship in the name of your church body for anyone and everyone. Don't do anything controversial, even if you think it could be justified. Focus on doing things that few, if any, could have any problem with.   

[Dave Benke]

Good comments on the meaning of Synod.  One way that I explain it is "unity" more than "uniformity"  Sometimes the two terms are the same; sometimes they aren't.  It is my perspective that the LCMS is doing a pretty good job on focusing on unity.  Yes, there are the outlying factions that would sharply disagree, but the administration has made statements saying that they are not interesting in the goose-stepping rigid uniformity that most outsiders automatically assume about Missouri.  Usually this is in regards to worship, and that "everyone has to do the same thing", but I don't think people have been listening very closely.  The concern isn't about the form of worship; the concern is over the shape of worship.  And there are some LCMS churches that have radically altered the shape of worship- no lectionary, periodic confession and absolution, periodic usage of a Creed being the most egregious.  LCMS churches that do those some or all of those things are breaking uniformity, which is also a breaking of unity.   

In this particular case of online communion/virtual communion, the actions aren't simply breaking uniformity, they are breaking unity. But I don't think the folks at Concordia San Antonio have anything to worry about.  Because they are Concordia San Antonio and no one else is.  There is a caste system in the LCMS, albeit in reverse, and they are in the "untouchable" zone. 

Jeremy

I've bolded a portion of this, Jeremy.  I think what you're driving at is that the "shape" is the Ordo.  And of course I agree with that estimation in terms of unity. 

For me - and I'm in this very rare "season" now - when we leave the arena of the Divine Service and to to services of the Word, we're in another arena.  As you know, the Creed is not spoken in Matins, Morning Prayer or Vespers, there is no public confession of sin/absolution in those services either.  There are worlds of variety through the course of the history of the Church in services of the Word, some more formal, some less.  Exploring this in live-stream format has been for me a new experience, because I've always had Divine Service on Sunday only.  I think it would be wise of the LCMS to come out not just with what not to do, but encouragement as to what To do in worship in this special and critical time.

a) The Word is powerful, it is the Gospel.  Read it.  Preach it.
b) I think the desired format then includes confession and absolution.  Not mandated, not an indicator of unity breakage or adherence, but desired.
c) I think the desired format then includes the Creed.  Not mandated, not an indicator of unity breakage or adherence, but desired.
d) And the following - Invocation, Prayers including the Lord's Prayer, readings from the texts for the week (optional of course in midweek), Benediction.  And of course the sermon.
e) Lots of singing.  Lots.  Favorite songs and hymns, ones that speak to the heart.
f) Interaction with those online ins real-time.  That's an amazing opportunity - takes longer, but nobody's going anywhere anyway.  Especially in prayer time but also other times.

And no distance holy communion.  The Schmalkald Articles fourth order of Gospel - the mutual conversation/consolation of the brethren/community is what becomes evident when we're at a distance.  We can speak with/communicate with one another in that powerful way given the technology we are privileged to have today.  And for those (we have many at my place) who don't have that tech we reach out via phone at other times.  I pray the Lord's Prayer with one of our seniors every morning so she can start the day off on the right foot in a time of anxiety.

In other words, why not make this a time to share service of the Word "best practices"?  Build on what we do have going for us.  Encourage those who are tempted by novelties to do well and pastorally support and encourage with the gifts they have.

Dave Benke

[Steven W Bohler]

Good comments on the meaning of Synod.  One way that I explain it is "unity" more than "uniformity"  Sometimes the two terms are the same; sometimes they aren't.  It is my perspective that the LCMS is doing a pretty good job on focusing on unity.  Yes, there are the outlying factions that would sharply disagree, but the administration has made statements saying that they are not interesting in the goose-stepping rigid uniformity that most outsiders automatically assume about Missouri.  Usually this is in regards to worship, and that "everyone has to do the same thing", but I don't think people have been listening very closely.  The concern isn't about the form of worship; the concern is over the shape of worship.  And there are some LCMS churches that have radically altered the shape of worship- no lectionary, periodic confession and absolution, periodic usage of a Creed being the most egregious.  LCMS churches that do those some or all of those things are breaking uniformity, which is also a breaking of unity.   

In this particular case of online communion/virtual communion, the actions aren't simply breaking uniformity, they are breaking unity. But I don't think the folks at Concordia San Antonio have anything to worry about.  Because they are Concordia San Antonio and no one else is.  There is a caste system in the LCMS, albeit in reverse, and they are in the "untouchable" zone. 

Jeremy

I've bolded a portion of this, Jeremy.  I think what you're driving at is that the "shape" is the Ordo.  And of course I agree with that estimation in terms of unity. 

For me - and I'm in this very rare "season" now - when we leave the arena of the Divine Service and to to services of the Word, we're in another arena.  As you know, the Creed is not spoken in Matins, Morning Prayer or Vespers, there is no public confession of sin/absolution in those services either.  There are worlds of variety through the course of the history of the Church in services of the Word, some more formal, some less.  Exploring this in live-stream format has been for me a new experience, because I've always had Divine Service on Sunday only.  I think it would be wise of the LCMS to come out not just with what not to do, but encouragement as to what To do in worship in this special and critical time.

a) The Word is powerful, it is the Gospel.  Read it.  Preach it.
b) I think the desired format then includes confession and absolution.  Not mandated, not an indicator of unity breakage or adherence, but desired.
c) I think the desired format then includes the Creed.  Not mandated, not an indicator of unity breakage or adherence, but desired.
d) And the following - Invocation, Prayers including the Lord's Prayer, readings from the texts for the week (optional of course in midweek), Benediction.  And of course the sermon.
e) Lots of singing.  Lots.  Favorite songs and hymns, ones that speak to the heart.
f) Interaction with those online ins real-time.  That's an amazing opportunity - takes longer, but nobody's going anywhere anyway.  Especially in prayer time but also other times.

And no distance holy communion.  The Schmalkald Articles fourth order of Gospel - the mutual conversation/consolation of the brethren/community is what becomes evident when we're at a distance.  We can speak with/communicate with one another in that powerful way given the technology we are privileged to have today.  And for those (we have many at my place) who don't have that tech we reach out via phone at other times.  I pray the Lord's Prayer with one of our seniors every morning so she can start the day off on the right foot in a time of anxiety.

In other words, why not make this a time to share service of the Word "best practices"?  Build on what we do have going for us.  Encourage those who are tempted by novelties to do well and pastorally support and encourage with the gifts they have.

Dave Benke

Yes!

[James J Eivan]

Rev Foster “They have walked away from me.”  Precisely how many in the LCMS feel ... as a child my family traveled the length and breath of the country ... always at home in whatever LCMS congregation we happened to visit ... today not so much ... friends are forced to make decisions on where to retire based on proximity to a Lutheran congregation that worships in the way they recognize.

[Dave Benke]

Good comments on the meaning of Synod.  One way that I explain it is "unity" more than "uniformity"  Sometimes the two terms are the same; sometimes they aren't.  It is my perspective that the LCMS is doing a pretty good job on focusing on unity.  Yes, there are the outlying factions that would sharply disagree, but the administration has made statements saying that they are not interesting in the goose-stepping rigid uniformity that most outsiders automatically assume about Missouri.  Usually this is in regards to worship, and that "everyone has to do the same thing", but I don't think people have been listening very closely.  The concern isn't about the form of worship; the concern is over the shape of worship.  And there are some LCMS churches that have radically altered the shape of worship- no lectionary, periodic confession and absolution, periodic usage of a Creed being the most egregious.  LCMS churches that do those some or all of those things are breaking uniformity, which is also a breaking of unity.   

In this particular case of online communion/virtual communion, the actions aren't simply breaking uniformity, they are breaking unity. But I don't think the folks at Concordia San Antonio have anything to worry about.  Because they are Concordia San Antonio and no one else is.  There is a caste system in the LCMS, albeit in reverse, and they are in the "untouchable" zone. 

Jeremy

I've bolded a portion of this, Jeremy.  I think what you're driving at is that the "shape" is the Ordo.  And of course I agree with that estimation in terms of unity. 

For me - and I'm in this very rare "season" now - when we leave the arena of the Divine Service and to to services of the Word, we're in another arena.  As you know, the Creed is not spoken in Matins, Morning Prayer or Vespers, there is no public confession of sin/absolution in those services either.  There are worlds of variety through the course of the history of the Church in services of the Word, some more formal, some less.  Exploring this in live-stream format has been for me a new experience, because I've always had Divine Service on Sunday only.  I think it would be wise of the LCMS to come out not just with what not to do, but encouragement as to what To do in worship in this special and critical time.

a) The Word is powerful, it is the Gospel.  Read it.  Preach it.
b) I think the desired format then includes confession and absolution.  Not mandated, not an indicator of unity breakage or adherence, but desired.
c) I think the desired format then includes the Creed.  Not mandated, not an indicator of unity breakage or adherence, but desired.
d) And the following - Invocation, Prayers including the Lord's Prayer, readings from the texts for the week (optional of course in midweek), Benediction.  And of course the sermon.
e) Lots of singing.  Lots.  Favorite songs and hymns, ones that speak to the heart.
f) Interaction with those online ins real-time.  That's an amazing opportunity - takes longer, but nobody's going anywhere anyway.  Especially in prayer time but also other times.

And no distance holy communion.  The Schmalkald Articles fourth order of Gospel - the mutual conversation/consolation of the brethren/community is what becomes evident when we're at a distance.  We can speak with/communicate with one another in that powerful way given the technology we are privileged to have today.  And for those (we have many at my place) who don't have that tech we reach out via phone at other times.  I pray the Lord's Prayer with one of our seniors every morning so she can start the day off on the right foot in a time of anxiety.

In other words, why not make this a time to share service of the Word "best practices"?  Build on what we do have going for us.  Encourage those who are tempted by novelties to do well and pastorally support and encourage with the gifts they have.

Dave Benke

Yes!

I was just re-reading what I said, SW, and it occurred to me that what I was describing was -  -  Page 5!  Albeit, with tech. 

Anyway, we go with the best we have from God's grace and by God's grace.

Dave Benke

[therevbrucefoster]

Concerning the reality of the "caste system" I know from personal experience that it exists in all Lutheran groups. Twice in my 26 years as a pastor in Door County Wisconsin, I had WELS pastors worship at my church. They worshiped with us despite the fact that there was a WELS congregation less than two miles apart. The first pastor didn't identify himself as WELS but after the service he asked me what resource I was using for an adult education offering I had announced. I said it was of my own creation but I would be happy to send him a copy. He gave me his email address. When I got ready to send it, I looked up the name of the church in the email address and discovered there was no ELCA with that name. I then looked at LCMS congregations, again blank. In unbelief I looked at WELS and bingo he was the senior pastor at a very large WELS congregation. The second case was even more extreme. The second pastor came regularly and communed. A past member of this congregation was a member of mine and he was staying with him. The two of them arranged to take the church's large youth group and choir up to Door County and stay with my members, sing at our church and all communed. The next year he brought up his whole adult choir for a concert on Saturday and worship on Sunday. No one in power in WELS could touch either of these men. They were too powerful. Now admittedly I am on the extreme conservative side of the ELCA (which isn't really very extreme these days but I am also a Seminex grad and have a PhD from Cambridge University so most people don't see me as a closet fundamentalist.

[Dave Benke]

Concerning the reality of the "caste system" I know from personal experience that it exists in all Lutheran groups. Twice in my 26 years as a pastor in Door County Wisconsin, I had WELS pastors worship at my church. They worshiped with us despite the fact that there was a WELS congregation less than two miles apart. The first pastor didn't identify himself as WELS but after the service he asked me what resource I was using for an adult education offering I had announced. I said it was of my own creation but I would be happy to send him a copy. He gave me his email address. When I got ready to send it, I looked up the name of the church in the email address and discovered there was no ELCA with that name. I then looked at LCMS congregations, again blank. In unbelief I looked at WELS and bingo he was the senior pastor at a very large WELS congregation. The second case was even more extreme. The second pastor came regularly and communed. A past member of this congregation was a member of mine and he was staying with him. The two of them arranged to take the church's large youth group and choir up to Door County and stay with my members, sing at our church and all communed. The next year he brought up his whole adult choir for a concert on Saturday and worship on Sunday. No one in power in WELS could touch either of these men. They were too powerful. Now admittedly I am on the extreme conservative side of the ELCA (which isn't really very extreme these days but I am also a Seminex grad and have a PhD from Cambridge University so most people don't see me as a closet fundamentalist.

If you're a closet fundamentalist with those credentials, that would be the tightest closet ever constructed.  No room for even one more like you.

You are speaking of WELS Lutheranism in Door County.  That is the home ground of half of my family, the WELS half.  Some of their brightest and best missionaries came from that part of the WELS world; they're my cousins.

Dave Benke

[Steven W Bohler]

Concerning the reality of the "caste system" I know from personal experience that it exists in all Lutheran groups. Twice in my 26 years as a pastor in Door County Wisconsin, I had WELS pastors worship at my church. They worshiped with us despite the fact that there was a WELS congregation less than two miles apart. The first pastor didn't identify himself as WELS but after the service he asked me what resource I was using for an adult education offering I had announced. I said it was of my own creation but I would be happy to send him a copy. He gave me his email address. When I got ready to send it, I looked up the name of the church in the email address and discovered there was no ELCA with that name. I then looked at LCMS congregations, again blank. In unbelief I looked at WELS and bingo he was the senior pastor at a very large WELS congregation. The second case was even more extreme. The second pastor came regularly and communed. A past member of this congregation was a member of mine and he was staying with him. The two of them arranged to take the church's large youth group and choir up to Door County and stay with my members, sing at our church and all communed. The next year he brought up his whole adult choir for a concert on Saturday and worship on Sunday. No one in power in WELS could touch either of these men. They were too powerful. Now admittedly I am on the extreme conservative side of the ELCA (which isn't really very extreme these days but I am also a Seminex grad and have a PhD from Cambridge University so most people don't see me as a closet fundamentalist.

Which congregation(s) did you serve in Door County?  Both my parents came from Sturgeon Bay, and I have a number of cousins still there.  My mother's side was/is WELS (St. Peter's in Sturgeon Bay) and my dad's was/is ELCA (Bayview in Sturgeon Bay).

[Brian Stoffregen]

I'm not involved in the supervision end of it anymore, but my counsel would be to do what has been done, which is to put out statements of advice from those in theological leadership when it comes to sacramental practice, then to have more counsel given through local supervisors to refrain from innovative sacramental practice and use this as a time for an appropriate fast.  Finally I would advise against exacerbation of the Body of Christ by hurling the heresy hunter lingo in this season.  It's a great time to reach out without touching in an online way to express concern without being vituperative.  That's what I plan to do during this week with my own concerns.

Dave Benke

Good advice, Dave. There will be time later to correct. In the meantime it's good to remember that we Lutherans suffer from 300 years of sacramental neglect and sacramental distortion. Accusations and bullying will never change that; it will merely reinforce bad practice.   

Peace, JOHN

These responses should grieve and concern the brothers and sisters of the LCMS.  A Lutherans we either ‘believe, teach, and confess’ or ‘we reject’.  I was taught that we are a synod I order that we may ‘walk together’. Indeed, a brief word study on synod yielded the following “late Middle English: via late Latin from Greek sunodos ‘meeting’, from sun- ‘together’ + hodos ‘way’.”

How is it walking together NOT to clearly condemn this clear and deliberate failure to walk together ... defying the council of the theologians chosen to aid us in our walk together as Dr. Benke aptly shared up thread ...

σύνοδος, as you indicate, is the combination of the words for "together" and "way" or "road". It's not a word used in the New Testament. However, the verb, συνοδεύω, is used in Acts 9:7 of the people "traveling on the same road with" Paul on his way to Damascus. A related noun, συνοδία, is used of the "group of travelers" heading back to Nazareth from Jerusalem in Luke 2:44.


The use in classical Greek literature, σύνοδος, refers to "a coming together". The "coming together" could be of people either for a positive purpose, i.e., an assembly, a meeting; or for a hostile purpose, i.e., two armies "coming together" for a battle. The "coming together" could also be of a thing and people, e.g., "coming into" money = "income."


These uses of the word group do not necessarily imply "agreement," but only close physical proximity. Those traveling on the Damascus Road or the road to Nazareth may not agree with each other. They may not even have the same destination; but at that point of time, they are on the road together heading in the same direction. Two armies coming together for battle, certainly do not agree with each other; but they are "on the road together".

[therevbrucefoster]

Actually I am not that sui generis. There are a fair number of Seminex graduates who chose Seminex more because we couldn't buy into LCMS theology at the time than we bought hook line and sinker into Seminex. Jerry Miller is another good example. He was class president at the time of the walkout. He later took his congregation out of the ELCA and into NALC. We are conservative by ELCA standards. It isn't just the matter of sexuality (although Nadia and others continue to amuse). The ELCA rush to various forms universalism, the easy adoption of post-modern hermeneutics, and infatuation with everything connected with "progressive" politics has alienated us. On the other hand nothing that has occurred in the last 46 years in the LCMS has changed our rejection of their theology. We support woman's ordination; we are passionate supporters of ecumenical activities among Christians; we know that we cannot be faithful to the Bible if we do not use critical tools to study it. The resolution at last year's LCMS convention affirming that six day creation was the only orthodox position for LCMS is a perfect example of why there is no siren call home. We aren't a big group, but "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" still try to keep the faith. One little secret is that there are some of our classmates in 1974 who aren't that much different theologically but for whatever chose to stay in the LCMS.                 

[Brian Stoffregen]

Good comments on the meaning of Synod.  One way that I explain it is "unity" more than "uniformity"  Sometimes the two terms are the same; sometimes they aren't. 

Some years ago I was curious why the Latin translators of the Nicene Creed from Greek transliterated καθολικός rather than translate it with a Latin word, e.g., universalis. My conclusion was: they didn't have a Latin word to adequately express the meaning of καθολικός, and universalis certainly doesn't have the same sense as καθολικός. (Those who say that "catholic" means "universal" are not quite correct.) universalis comes from from uni = “one” and verto = “to turn”! seems to suggest that many different things are “turning as one” or, “going in the same direction.” The picture I get is flocks of birds or schools of fish that mysteriously know to all turn together. This is like the "uniformity" you mentioned above.


The main word in καθολικός is ὅλος meaning “whole, entire, complete.” “Whole,” also in the sense of being “safe and sound,” e.g., “healthy”.

The suffix -ικος expresses the idea of “belonging to, pertaining to, with the characteristics of.”


The prefix καθ- (from κατα-), in this case, probably serves to strengthen the meaning of ὅλος.


Thus, καθολικός would seem to express the idea that “we are indeed part of the whole.”


Talking about a whole loaf of bread (that has different ingredients) or the whole body (that has many different parts) isn’t the same as talking about universal bread or universal body. It's like I mentioned in another post about σύνοδος: just because we are on the same road together doesn't mean we are in agreement about everything.


I’m not sure that we have any word in English that adequately expresses the meaning of καθολικός, so we do what the ancients did. We transliterate the foreign word and “catholic” came into the English language.

[readselerttoo]

Actually I am not that sui generis. There are a fair number of Seminex graduates who chose Seminex more because we couldn't buy into LCMS theology at the time than we bought hook line and sinker into Seminex. Jerry Miller is another good example. He was class president at the time of the walkout. He later took his congregation out of the ELCA and into NALC. We are conservative by ELCA standards. It isn't just the matter of sexuality (although Nadia and others continue to amuse). The ELCA rush to various forms universalism, the easy adoption of post-modern hermeneutics, and infatuation with everything connected with "progressive" politics has alienated us. On the other hand nothing that has occurred in the last 46 years in the LCMS has changed our rejection of their theology. We support woman's ordination; we are passionate supporters of ecumenical activities among Christians; we know that we cannot be faithful to the Bible if we do not use critical tools to study it. The resolution at last year's LCMS convention affirming that six day creation was the only orthodox position for LCMS is a perfect example of why there is no siren call home. We aren't a big group, but "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" still try to keep the faith. One little secret is that there are some of our classmates in 1974 who aren't that much different theologically but for whatever chose to stay in the LCMS.               

Yes.  I have a similar experience.  Since arriving at Shepherd of the Hills (LCMS) I have connected with folks who had remained at Concordia-STL rather than walk.  I graduated from Seminex late (1984) but I also had discovered Althaus (when I was at Wartburg, Dubuque 1977-78) and then Elert via Bertram-Schroeder.  There are many today in the Texas District-LCMS who had graduated from Concordia-STL in the 1970s-80s and share with me a similar biblical hermeneutic as well as conservative Lutheran theology untainted by the political-biblical-theological which upended Seminex back then.  It was not the existential angst of what occurred at Seminex that propelled me to remain within Seminex and the AELC.  It was the completely new value that emerged in general and for me in particular that the Althaus-Elert influenced and the "systematics" department at Seminex which told me that the American churches both Lutheran and otherwise could benefit from this renewal.  I think Matt Becker might agree as his current translating of Edmund Schlink connects with this strain of thinking.  His scholarship on Schlink carries this method forward, imo.

[therevbrucefoster]

I certainly learned a get deal from Schroeder but never became a groupie. My first two years of seminary were done at Cambridge University in a completely different environment. Also I went back for four more years of a PhD. I am hopelessly entangled in a much more broad view point. My heart and soul is committed to the confessions but I don't have a particular "rabbi" among Lutheran theologians. I learned a lot from reading Elert but I exposed to Schroeder although he rejected the evidence right in front of him that Elert was at best a passive supporter of the Third Reich and at worst a sympathetic supporter of National Socialism political agenda. The smoking gun was Elert's support for the Aryan Clause and the removal of pastors who were of Jewish ancestry. Schroeder's whole hog adoption of ELCA social policy was also off putting. But still he taught me Apology IV and for that I will always be grateful. Also he kept me from joining the LCMS in which I know I would have gone even crazier than I am in the ELCA!

[John_Hannah]

I have no doubt that future historians will find that SEMINEX and its associates were in reality quite conservative.   

Peace, JOHN

[readselerttoo]

In addition, I wasn't as much influenced by the "horrors" of the historical-critical method of biblical interpretation back then.  That seemed to be the impetus for much of the brou-ha-ha aroused during those years.  I have always seen this method as a relative and limited way to hermeneutics, a tool which can be used and/or discarded at will.  What really was new was the opposition between a repristination of 17th century Lutheran Orthodoxy vs. a renewed appreciation for Luther/Melanchthon and the Lutheran Confessions through a practical and theoretical use of the law-Gospel hermeneutic centered in Mel's Apology IV as well as the Formula of Concord Preface, articles 1 and 10 and even Luther's Smalkald Articles.  The brou-ha-ha wasn't of much interest to me as what was coming out of post WW2 Germany.  Even the Dane Regin Prenter's work resonates here.

Today I believe Concordia-STL might have preserved some of the best from the Elert-Seminex tradition.  Certainly the Crossings community (crossings.org.) does, as it has tried to carry this on in its own way..