Author Topic: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?  (Read 59896 times)

James J Eivan

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #180 on: March 29, 2020, 12:37:04 AM »
Is the heresy filter available to share with fellow ALPB participants?

It would be extremely helpful  and informative to some when attempting to post on theological topics.
I heard this on a podcast the other day: "Don't listen to the President, listen to your local officials--unless you live in Texas."  ;)
I was a bit puzzled about Rev Johnson's reverence to local Texas officials until I read the the Texas DP had 'authorized virtual consecration of grape juice... now I understand  :-[
https://www.concordia.cc/homeWhat’s so heretical about it?
Grape Juice ... and virtual Consecration ... but the heresy filter would have identified these problems.

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #181 on: March 29, 2020, 06:52:15 AM »
The understanding of the sacrament. The understanding of church. The understanding of the ministry.

Jeremy
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #182 on: March 29, 2020, 07:43:07 AM »
The understanding of the sacrament. The understanding of church. The understanding of the ministry.

Jeremy

Aye, it smacks of "sacramagic".

FYI "hocus pocus" is a contraction and blaspheming of hos est corpus meum.
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Dave Benke

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #183 on: March 29, 2020, 08:39:15 AM »
I'm not involved in the supervision end of it anymore, but my counsel would be to do what has been done, which is to put out statements of advice from those in theological leadership when it comes to sacramental practice, then to have more counsel given through local supervisors to refrain from innovative sacramental practice and use this as a time for an appropriate fast.  Finally I would advise against exacerbation of the Body of Christ by hurling the heresy hunter lingo in this season.  It's a great time to reach out without touching in an online way to express concern without being vituperative.  That's what I plan to do during this week with my own concerns.

Dave Benke

John_Hannah

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #184 on: March 29, 2020, 08:53:28 AM »
I'm not involved in the supervision end of it anymore, but my counsel would be to do what has been done, which is to put out statements of advice from those in theological leadership when it comes to sacramental practice, then to have more counsel given through local supervisors to refrain from innovative sacramental practice and use this as a time for an appropriate fast.  Finally I would advise against exacerbation of the Body of Christ by hurling the heresy hunter lingo in this season.  It's a great time to reach out without touching in an online way to express concern without being vituperative.  That's what I plan to do during this week with my own concerns.

Dave Benke

Good advice, Dave. There will be time later to correct. In the meantime it's good to remember that we Lutherans suffer from 300 years of sacramental neglect and sacramental distortion. Accusations and bullying will never change that; it will merely reinforce bad practice.   :)

Peace, JOHN

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #185 on: March 29, 2020, 12:57:02 PM »
The understanding of the sacrament. The understanding of church. The understanding of the ministry.

Jeremy

Aye, it smacks of "sacramagic".

FYI "hocus pocus" is a contraction and blaspheming of hos est corpus meum.


My dictionary says that it comes "from early 17th century: from early 17th century: from hax pax max Deus adimax, a pseudo-Latin phrase used as a magic formula by conjurors."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hocus-pocus gives numerous possible origins of the phrase. It was first used as the stage name of a magician in the early 1600s.
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #186 on: March 29, 2020, 01:03:03 PM »
Here is how St. Nicholas Serbian Orthodox Church In Steelton PA is combining live streaming with distribution of Communion to the “socially distanced” faithful

Quote

After Liturgy, Fr. Chris will remain with the Holy Eucharist in the Church. Deacon Bojan will serve as the doorperson to ensure there is only one family at a time entering the Church.

Faithful who would like to receive the Holy Eucharist are asked to come between the hours of 9:30AM to 1:00PM. One family will be permitted into the Church at a time to light candles, pray, and receive Holy Communion. When they exit, the next family may enter. We ask you to please wait in your vehicles until it is your turn to enter.


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Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

readselerttoo

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #187 on: March 29, 2020, 01:27:05 PM »
The practice at Concordia, San Antonio may be unusual.  But right now we are in unusual times in terms of social distancing.  I don't see the pastoral venture for a church to charge someone from a pastor to a member of a household the authority to speak the words of institution of the sacrament of Holy Communion and it not be valid.  God in Christ said it/says it and the people are fed the very body and blood of the Living Savior.  There are people who are terrified of the situation they or a loved one are living in.  Jesus' own body and blood received in faith can restore one to deep confidence and hope in  their sins being forgiven, their eternal life and salvation, as our catechism states.

Charles Austin

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #188 on: March 29, 2020, 04:22:40 PM »
Our sins are forgiven through the spoken word, not only through the actual reception of the sacrament. I felt that strongly this morning as I watched a streamed service on television Where the absolution was clearly spoken, and there was no attempt at any kind of holy communion.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 07:07:09 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.


Dave Benke

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #190 on: March 29, 2020, 06:40:44 PM »
Our sins are forgiven through the spoken word, not only through the actual reception of the sacrament. I felt that strongly this morning as I watched a streamed service on television Where are the absolution was clearly spoken, and there was no attempt at any kind of holy communion.

Yes - I think that the order of confession and absolution is received extraordinarily well in live-streaming format - we've had lots of comments on that in Brooklyn.

I added two components this morning; with the need to pray for leadership from public officials around the country, since it's a service of the Word we're adding the Pledge of Allegiance before the service begins. 

Secondly, we are encouraging everyone to bang on a pot, applaud and/or pray at 7 PM for our front line heroes in health care.  That's 20 minutes away out here.

Dave Benke

James J Eivan

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #191 on: March 30, 2020, 01:44:47 AM »
I'm not involved in the supervision end of it anymore, but my counsel would be to do what has been done, which is to put out statements of advice from those in theological leadership when it comes to sacramental practice, then to have more counsel given through local supervisors to refrain from innovative sacramental practice and use this as a time for an appropriate fast.  Finally I would advise against exacerbation of the Body of Christ by hurling the heresy hunter lingo in this season.  It's a great time to reach out without touching in an online way to express concern without being vituperative.  That's what I plan to do during this week with my own concerns.

Dave Benke
Good advice, Dave. There will be time later to correct. In the meantime it's good to remember that we Lutherans suffer from 300 years of sacramental neglect and sacramental distortion. Accusations and bullying will never change that; it will merely reinforce bad practice.   :)

Peace, JOHN
These responses should grieve and concern the brothers and sisters of the LCMS.  A Lutherans we either ‘believe, teach, and confess’ or ‘we reject’.  I was taught that we are a synod I order that we may ‘walk together’. Indeed, a brief word study on synod yielded the following “late Middle English: via late Latin from Greek sunodos ‘meeting’, from sun-together’ + hodosway’.”

How is it walking together NOT to clearly condemn this clear and deliberate failure to walk together ... defying the council of the theologians chosen to aid us in our walk together as Dr. Benke aptly shared up thread ...

I just received an email from the Michigan District, LCMS, with this article written by the LCMS Commission on Theology on March 20:  Here it is -
<snip ... link provided for reference purposes>
Worth reading and discussing.


Dave Benke
After reading Dr. Benke’s post linked to above, it appeared that the issue was adequately addresses by those we, walking TOGETHER as a synod, chose to lead in a situation such as this.


It evident that not only a pastor who is an actual signing member of synod is NOT walking together, but also a district president (a position designated to be an extension of the synodical president) ... one who should represent ‘synod in place of the synodical president’ is not only not walking TOGETHER ... but also failing to be ‘synod in that place’ by representing synod’s current position in this matter.


It’s rather confusing and confounding that Dr Benke’s statement “refrain from innovative sacramental practice” ... then to castigate the condemnation of such practice with terms such as ‘exacerbation’, ‘heresy hunter lingo’, and ‘vituperative’. This pastor’s, congregation’s, district president’s actions are a public offense to those who have taken seriously the pledge to ‘walk together’. Rev Hannah’s bullying accusation are symptomatic of ignoring the problem by name calling/slandering those who are willing to call a spade a spade in place of substantively addressing the problem. Tragically, as my confirming pastor (now retired) lamented on numerous occasions, many of the pastors of today are a law into themselves ... doing whatever they da&% well please ... each a god unto themselves. This pastor had many years to question the ruling Dr, Benke’s post referenced ... but chose either not to or to deliberately defy a long stand decision and practice ... again a law and god unto himself.Perhaps a explanation of ‘300 years of sacramental neglect and sacramental distortion’ is on order since the statement as it written is nothing but a vague generality with little or no content and meaning.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 02:46:55 AM by James Eivan »

James J Eivan

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #192 on: March 30, 2020, 02:44:24 AM »
Our sins are forgiven through the spoken word, not only through the actual reception of the sacrament. I felt that strongly this morning as I watched a streamed service on television Where the absolution was clearly spoken, and there was no attempt at any kind of holy communion.
I heartily agree with Rev Austin with one clarification I think Rev Austin will agree with with ... The absolution clearly spoken is a FACT ... whether strongly felt as in Rev Austin's case or received with no feeling by one who believes the words and promises of God despite mourning the loss of a love one or being in the depths of depression.


God's forgiveness depends on HIS Word and Will, not our feelings. Thank God for the gift of the Holy Spirit who enables to believe and trust those forgiving words.

therevbrucefoster

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #193 on: March 30, 2020, 07:18:33 AM »
James Evans explication of the meaning of the word Synod is entirely correct. But there are always two challenges with that meaning. Is "walking together" the same as "goose stepping"? Just look at the fracturing of the Synod Conference and continuing division of WELS and LCMS not to mention a horde of micro-Synods. Ironically in the LCMS there are plenty of pastors to the right of center who practice all kinds of dissent from LCMS practice and teaching. Walking together is a metaphor not a guide to church discipline. The devil and the meaning will be in the details. Second, "signing on" to the promise to walk together is done at ordination. It isn't a promise to agree with every press release from either the Purple Palace or Higgins Rd. I "signed on" to "walk together" with the ALC in 1976. I would gladly today make that same promise to the church represented by David Preus, Gehardt Forde, James Nestigen, Roy Harrisville. That church no longer exists. They have walked away from me. If they would wish to expel me for not changing with them so be it. The usual tactic is simply to ignore people like myself knowing that we will soon be dead. They are careful to make sure none of my ilk are let in now. Then again that is not a very hard job because why would any intelligent person seek ordination in a church body that in practice is untethered from the Lutheran tradition. Yes the great defenders of the new order will immediately chime in that the ELCA represents Lutheran theology at its best, empty hell, ethically sourced porn and BDS and all. I disagree and humbly acknowledge that I no longer "walk together."

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Worship can be livestreamed, but communion can't?
« Reply #194 on: March 30, 2020, 10:05:13 AM »
Good comments on the meaning of Synod.  One way that I explain it is "unity" more than "uniformity"  Sometimes the two terms are the same; sometimes they aren't.  It is my perspective that the LCMS is doing a pretty good job on focusing on unity.  Yes, there are the outlying factions that would sharply disagree, but the administration has made statements saying that they are not interesting in the goose-stepping rigid uniformity that most outsiders automatically assume about Missouri.  Usually this is in regards to worship, and that "everyone has to do the same thing", but I don't think people have been listening very closely.  The concern isn't about the form of worship; the concern is over the shape of worship.  And there are some LCMS churches that have radically altered the shape of worship- no lectionary, periodic confession and absolution, periodic usage of a Creed being the most egregious.  LCMS churches that do those some or all of those things are breaking uniformity, which is also a breaking of unity.   

In this particular case of online communion/virtual communion, the actions aren't simply breaking uniformity, they are breaking unity.  But I don't think the folks at Concordia San Antonio have anything to worry about.  Because they are Concordia San Antonio and no one else is.  There is a caste system in the LCMS, albeit in reverse, and they are in the "untouchable" zone. 

Jeremy
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