Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 474091 times)

DeHall1

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5100 on: October 04, 2021, 11:27:07 AM »
Hospitals, like other businesses, have a right to require certain things of their workers. This time what they require is that the workers be vaccinated against Covid.  And since it is 100% clear that vaccinations help against the disease, I do not see why one would refuse to take it, but one may make that choice. And as we are learning in various places, it may cost you your job. But that’s the way it works

Health care facilities require a number of vaccinations, as  a condition of employment prior to COVID as have schools for  for a number of years

You are not required to get a vaccine if you have previously had the disease (measles, mumps and chickenpox for instance), although you may have to be tested if you work in an enviroment that requires documented proof-- like the healthcare industry. From what I've seen,  COVID vaccination is required in New York regardless of previous history.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5101 on: October 04, 2021, 11:28:18 AM »
And for a few people, there is no greater imposition on liberty than limiting how many guns they may purchase, where they may purchase them, and what regulations might apply to those purchases. And for a few people there is no greater imposition on liberty than not allowing them to keep large wild animals in their backyard.
We do things that impose on our liberties all the time. The issue is what things and to what end.
And I do not cede the argument to those with oddball ideas of what liberty is.
But I will say, you have the right not to be vaccinated. So long as you accept the restrictions that come with walking around in an unvaccinated body, or rather not walking around in an unvaccinated body because you are not permitted to be out in public places or hold certain jobs.

Perhaps we should make the unvaccinated wear something to identify themselves...Like a badge or something.

Maybe force them th live in enclosed ares that isolate the unvaccinated from the vaccinated population.   

This is a healthcare CRISIS, and we need to stop the unvaccinated from mixing with and thus degrading the superior Aryan race. the vaccinated.


I suggest that the next time someone you know is in the hospital with a contagious disease, you should visit them without any protection. The protection isn't about being a better race, but to protect you and the patient from germs that could kill one or both of you.


When I visited a confined hog operation,  I had to wear more protection that I have done when visiting sick people in the hospital. We do what we can to keep contagious diseases from spreading.

As a pastor I have occasionally been asked/required to gown, glove and mask for visits to certain patients.  But I did not have to do so for every visit, only those with a confirmed case of some condition known to be contagious.  I think we end up here with an 'apples and oranges' situation.  If the entire world is going to be deemed too dangerous to ever be unmasked anywhere at anytime, then I guess our society will have to move to ongoing mask wearing anytime we are in public venues.  Perhaps that is where many are going.  I do not want to live with that level of fear and paranoia.  I will take appropriate precautions, but there are limits.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Randy Bosch

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5102 on: October 04, 2021, 11:34:17 AM »
When I visited a confined hog operation,  I had to wear more protection that I have done when visiting sick people in the hospital. We do what we can to keep contagious diseases from spreading. If farmers will mandate such restrictions to protect hogs; why shouldn't businesses be able to do the same thing to protect people.

1. The farmers don't mandate such restrictions, the FDA and other governmental health organizations do, to protect the consumers of pork products - humans - from what are often rapidly spreading health problems in humans from eating contaminated pork products.   
2.  So you promote confined human operations run by businesses, licensed by the CDC?

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5103 on: October 04, 2021, 12:00:40 PM »
Meanwhile, the latest pontifications from what some in these parts consider the fount of all wisdom and the promoter of all virtue:

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20211004&instance_id=41974&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN&regi_id=166958490&segment_id=70605&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F1de5b57c-1efd-5bb4-8059-da425ee636aa&user_id=8a6a866ac3c3de137a20412f1c1edfc9

Quote

That two-month cycle

Covid-19 is once again in retreat.


The reasons remain somewhat unclear, and there is no guarantee that the decline in caseloads will continue. But the turnaround is now large enough — and been going on long enough — to deserve attention.

The number of new daily cases in the U.S. has fallen 35 percent since Sept. 1:

Worldwide, cases have also dropped more than 30 percent since late August. “This is as good as the world has looked in many months,” Dr. Eric Topol of Scripps Research wrote last week.

These declines are consistent with a pattern that regular readers of this newsletter will recognize: Covid’s mysterious two-month cycle. Since the Covid virus began spreading in late 2019, cases have often surged for about two months — sometimes because of a variant, like Delta — and then declined for about two months.

Epidemiologists do not understand why. Many popular explanations, like seasonality or the ebbs and flows of social distancing, are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.

The most plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.

Human behavior does play a role, with people often becoming more careful once caseloads begin to rise. But social distancing is not as important as public discussion of the virus often imagines. “We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.

The recent declines, for example, have occurred even as millions of American children have again crowded into school buildings.

Hospitalizations, too

Whatever the reasons, the two-month cycle keeps happening. It is visible in the global numbers, as you can see in the chart below. Cases rose from late February to late April, then fell until late June, rose again until late August and have been falling since.

The pattern has also been evident within countries, including India, Indonesia, Thailand, Britain, France and Spain. In each of them, the Delta variant led to a surge in cases lasting somewhere from one and a half to two and a half months.

In the U.S., the Delta surge started in several Southern states in June and began receding in those states in August. In much of the rest of the U.S., it began in July, and cases have begun falling the past few weeks. Even pediatric cases are falling, despite the lack of vaccine authorization for children under 12, as Jennifer Nuzzo of Johns Hopkins University told The Washington Post. (You can see the overall trends for every state here.)

The most encouraging news is that serious Covid illnesses are also declining. The number of Americans hospitalized with Covid has fallen about 25 percent since Sept. 1. Daily deaths — which typically change direction a few weeks after cases and hospitalizations — have fallen 10 percent since Sept. 20. It is the first sustained decline in deaths since the early summer.
‘The last major wave’?

This is the part of the newsletter where I need to emphasize that these declines may not persist. Covid’s two-month cycle is not some kind of iron law of science. There have been plenty of exceptions.

In Britain, for example, caseloads have seesawed over the past two months, rather than consistently fallen. In the U.S., the onset of cold weather and the increase in indoor activities — or some other unknown factor — could cause a rise in cases this fall. The course of the pandemic remains highly uncertain.

But this uncertainty also means that the near future could prove to be more encouraging than we expect. And there are some legitimate reasons for Covid optimism.

The share of Americans 12 and over who have received at least one vaccine shot has reached 76 percent, and the growing number of vaccine mandates — along with the likely authorization of the Pfizer vaccine for children ages 5 to 11 — will increase the number of vaccinations this fall. Almost as important, something like one-half of Americans have probably had the Covid virus already, giving them some natural immunity.

Eventually, immunity will become widespread enough that another wave as large and damaging as the Delta wave will not be possible. “Barring something unexpected,” Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a former F.D.A. commissioner and the author of “Uncontrolled Spread,” a new book on Covid, told me, “I’m of the opinion that this is the last major wave of infection.”

Covid has not only been one of the worst pandemics in modern times. It has been an unnecessarily terrible pandemic. Of the more than 700,000 Americans who have died from it, nearly 200,000 probably could have been saved if they had chosen to take a vaccine. That is a national tragedy.

Covid also isn’t going to disappear anytime soon. It will continue to circulate for years, many scientists believe. But the vaccines can transform Covid into a manageable disease, not so different from a flu or common cold. In the past few weeks, the country appears to have moved closer to that less grim future.

Whatever this autumn brings, the worst of the pandemic is almost certainly behind us.

Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5104 on: October 04, 2021, 12:19:25 PM »
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2021/10/04/makary-the-fda-is-vindictive-n2596902

This is the sort of thing that is a real shame that stems from the politicization of the federal bureaucracy.

peterm

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5105 on: October 04, 2021, 12:36:10 PM »
Hospitals, like other businesses, have a right to require certain things of their workers. This time what they require is that the workers be vaccinated against Covid.  And since it is 100% clear that vaccinations help against the disease, I do not see why one would refuse to take it, but one may make that choice. And as we are learning in various places, it may cost you your job. But that’s the way it works

Health care facilities require a number of vaccinations, as  a condition of employment prior to COVID as have schools for  for a number of years

My point is that requiring vaccinations, particularly in health care settings is not new.  I was required, while a nursing home chaplain, to get an annual flu shot, the hep B series and provide proof of vaccination for a whole host of childhood and other diseases and make sure my tetanus was up to date and it was no big deal.

You are not required to get a vaccine if you have previously had the disease (measles, mumps and chickenpox for instance), although you may have to be tested if you work in an enviroment that requires documented proof-- like the healthcare industry. From what I've seen,  COVID vaccination is required in New York regardless of previous history.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5106 on: October 04, 2021, 01:06:08 PM »
CDC numbers sure throw doubt on the contention that it's the back-to-school change that is driving cases.  Cases have been dropping off since about the time school started (some did start earlier than others, but the trends don't track with start of school).

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime

Robert Johnson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5107 on: October 04, 2021, 02:00:58 PM »
CDC numbers sure throw doubt on the contention that it's the back-to-school change that is driving cases.  Cases have been dropping off since about the time school started (some did start earlier than others, but the trends don't track with start of school).

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime

There is a strong seasonal component to Covid. Places with similar weather patterns have similar to near identical statistics, leregardless of closings and masking.

For example: Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi have different histories of mask rules, but their rates of illness and death virtually overlap.

North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana: their patterns look completely different from the southern states but practically identical to each other.

California and Nevada are different in terms of public policies, but their rates look about the same.

Here is an interesting article on that point: https://ianmsc.substack.com/p/every-comparison-shows-masks-are

Check out the Sweden vs Germany graph toward the end of the article.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 02:03:18 PM by Robert Johnson »

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5108 on: October 04, 2021, 02:39:08 PM »

The problem, which is presumably bipartisan, is abuse of power in service of a partisan agenda. The IRS has been weaponized, the FBI, the CIA, the FDA, the EPA, the DEA, basically any federal agency with initials should always do their job and do it the same regardless of who is in office, and should always follow directives from duly elected or appointed officials without second-guessing them. 

The minute you think you're going to get a ticket unless you support the Fraternal Order of Police, or that you're going to get audited by the IRS if you send money to a Tea Party candidate, or that the FBI will leak or not leak info (or find it in the first place) based on politics, or that the FDA might yank approval for one product unless you cooperate with it on some other product, then you aren't dealing with the government as designed, you're dealing with something more like the mafia. "Nice company/income/property/ you got there; be a shame if something happened to it. Now here's what I think you should do..."

In this case, the article says the problem has gotten bad, but the point is that it has been a problem to some degree for a long time, certainly predating the current administration. The idea that the FDA might abuse its authority to bring into line companies that don't play ball with politicians is obscene. It should disgust everyone. Concentrations of government power (especially among unelected bureaucrats) are dangerous, which should resonate with everyone who understands original sin.   
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 11:33:34 PM by peter_speckhard »

DeHall1

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5109 on: October 04, 2021, 02:44:27 PM »
Peter:
This is the sort of thing that is a real shame that stems from the politicization of the federal bureaucracy.
Me:
Of course, Makaty said this without giving any examples or any evidence to back it up. And Fox News, at least according to this story, apparently didn’t ask any questions that might’ve elicited some examples or evidence.
And why would they? It was enough to slam the current administration, never mind examples or evidence.
And if one is concerned about the “politicization“ of government bureaucracy, anybody here outraged by what’s been going on in the post office since the Ex appointed one of his buddies to run the thing? He took actions clearly designed to affect the ability of certain people to vote.

You're quick to point out that Dr. Marty Makary, a professor of surgery and health policy at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (a University, BTW, that consistently ranks among the nation’s very best in education) didn't give "..any examples or any evidence to back it up."

I'm willing to believe that Dr. Markary wouldn't make the comment if he didn't have proof of its accuracy, given his position.   I wonder why you aren't....

I'll also note that you mispelled his name -- That's the second time today you've mispelled someone's name.   


pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5110 on: October 04, 2021, 05:05:34 PM »
To follow up on empty works righteousness and virtue signaling: In the wife’s trip back to Minnesota there was one mask mandate. It was at the airport, signs at which indicated imasks were mandated by “Executive Order of President Biden.”

Peter (You know somebody is showering with a mask on…) Garrison

Pete Garrison, STS

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5111 on: October 04, 2021, 08:00:06 PM »
Wife just returned from Minneapolis. Wide open. Mass at Basilica had signs advising that wearing masks are strongly advised. Priest and choir masked but other than there masks were rarely seen.
Here in SF we have people driving solo wearing masks.

I think a lot of this wearing masks is a virtue signaling works righteousness that takes place especially in unchurched areas. It’s a way of showing that you’re concerned about others and that you’re taking steps to protect others and a visible sign that you’re more aware than others. Woke if you will.

Peter (“I don’t need no stinkin’ masks”) Garrison

I'm interested in your bolded comment.  I'm thinking you're thinking about the Bay area (?).  In NY, church leaders are specifically out in public with masks and speaking about wearing them.  I haven't caught the virtue signaling in those endeavors, more a desire to keep those they serve safe, especially those who are in compromised condition.  Why do you see pro-masking as "especially in unchurched areas?"

Dave Benke

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5112 on: October 04, 2021, 11:48:25 PM »
Dear Bishop Benke-

I retract my hyperbole concerning the wearing of masks being greater in unchurched areas. After all, our church is still fully masked with the choir wearing $100 masks that allow them to sing better than regular masks. Yet, whether the mask-wearer is motivated by politics, fear, pride or germ theory I still sense a bit of theatre being played.

Peter(I wear mine only to be polite and not get yelled at; both motivators for much of my morality)Garrison
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 10:26:27 AM by pastorg1@aol.com »
Pete Garrison, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5113 on: October 05, 2021, 05:13:36 AM »

Re the subject:
The vaccines work.
Wearing masks help.
The unvaccinated must restrict their comings and goings and might lose their jobs.
It is within the right of our communities - church, school, workplace, civil order - to regulate such things.
If the committee at your church which oversees the health of the congregation says masks must be worn at worship, do you turn away someone who defiantly refuses? You should.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 08:42:08 AM by peter_speckhard »
Retired ELCA Pastor: We are not a very inter-Lutheran forum. Posters with more than 1,500 posts: ELCA-6, with 3 of those inactive/rare and 1 moderator; LCMS-25, with 4 inactive/rare and 1 moderator. Non-Lutherans, 3; maybe 4 from other Lutheran bodies. 3 formerly frequent posters have gone quiet.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5114 on: October 05, 2021, 08:46:52 AM »

Re the subject:
The vaccines work.
Wearing masks help.
The unvaccinated must restrict their comings and goings and might lose their jobs.
It is within the right of our communities - church, school, workplace, civil order - to regulate such things.
If the committee at your church which oversees the health of the congregation says masks must be worn at worship, do you turn away someone who defiantly refuses? You should.
If the vaccines work, just get vaccinated and quit worrying about the unvaccinated. That's what I did and continue to do, and it works just great as an approach to life. Being afraid of getting a disease that you've been vaccinated against is an argument that the vaccines don't work all that well.