Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 438221 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4920 on: September 26, 2021, 07:53:34 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
That would get them out of your hair and no longer troubling your well regulated society.

Me:
Some really mean people have suggested that very thing, and wondered if God is culling the herd. I do not agree  with those mean people.
I muse, in connection with the discussion upstream about "trust," that is is not simply whom you trust, but how you decide who is trustworthy.
This, I dare to day, means that you must be able to make your brain cells rub together in meaningful ways, that you either have some "book learning" or listen to those who do and that you recognize your limitations.
Elitist? Only if you think it's better to listen to smart people than to stupid people. Or if you think that those with some education are trying to pull the wool over your eyes at every turn.
"Gee, this stuff cures my horse from an infestation of worms, and someone says I should take it for COVID. Sorry, Trigger, I need your meds."
"Well, of course the election was rigged; those Jewish space lasers did real damage."
"Bob Woodward just wants to sell a book, he doesn't care if what's in it is true or not."
Good grief! We want people to listen to orthodox Lutheran clergy rather than semi-atheistic nutballs or modern anabaptists. Why can't we say "Listen to the smart people, not the conspiracy idiots, whose claims are being disproved every day"?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. In Minnesota. Still concerned about The Church and nation. Catholics: scandals, cover-ups. Evangelicals: hypocrisy, venality. Progressives: loss of focus. Denominations: dying. Our Constitution: In danger from crazies. Clinging, I am, to signs of hope.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4921 on: September 26, 2021, 08:28:17 PM »
Yeah, don't listen to the conspiracy nuts like those who claimed that there was solid proof that Donald Trump and his campaign was conspiring withe the Russians to subvert our democracy and steal the election, or who knew, back in 2020, that Pres. Trump was blowing this minor epidemic in China all out of proportion to distract people from his failings and advance unnecessary and xenophobic travel restrictions, or that Pres. Trump was ready to start a nuclear war with China to keep himself in office. . .
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jebutler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4922 on: September 26, 2021, 10:01:47 PM »
Me:
Some really mean people have suggested that very thing, and wondered if God is culling the herd. I do not agree  with those mean people.
I muse, in connection with the discussion upstream about "trust," that is is not simply whom you trust, but how you decide who is trustworthy.
This, I dare to day, means that you must be able to make your brain cells rub together in meaningful ways, that you either have some "book learning" or listen to those who do and that you recognize your limitations.
Elitist? Only if you think it's better to listen to smart people than to stupid people. Or if you think that those with some education are trying to pull the wool over your eyes at every turn.
"Gee, this stuff cures my horse from an infestation of worms, and someone says I should take it for COVID. Sorry, Trigger, I need your meds."
"Well, of course the election was rigged; those Jewish space lasers did real damage."
"Bob Woodward just wants to sell a book, he doesn't care if what's in it is true or not."
Good grief! We want people to listen to orthodox Lutheran clergy rather than semi-atheistic nutballs or modern anabaptists. Why can't we say "Listen to the smart people, not the conspiracy idiots, whose claims are being disproved every day"?

So, Charles, who is the New York City Teacher's Union listening to? They filed a lawsuit to keep the city government from enforcing a vaccine mandate. Unvaccinated teachers were supposed to get booted starting Tuesday, but on Friday a judge issued an injunction. So what do you think is the problem with these teachers? Are the uneducated? Selfish? Self-centered? Uncaring? Do they just want to kill children?  https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/25/us/new-york-city-teacher-vaccine-mandate-injunction/index.html

Or what about the nurses in upstate New York? Upstate University Hospital in Syracuse, NY just announced that it will be shutting down 22 of its 35 operating rooms. Are those nurses reading books about Jewish space lasers? Are they arguing that the election was rigged? Are these healthcare professionals uneducated? Selfish? Uncaring? (You seemed to throw those accusations around earlier.) https://www.syracuse.com/health/2021/09/upstate-university-hospital-to-shutter-ors-blaming-ny-vaccine-mandate-for-staff-shortage.html

As for silly claims, President Biden claimed today that his $3.5 trillion "Build Back Better" program costs "zero dollars." I think that's sillier--and much more  serious--than anyone taking Trigger's medicine (which, no one has done. There are human versions of that medicine. But I would think you'd actually know that. But maybe not. You think France is locking people down.)
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4923 on: September 26, 2021, 10:37:44 PM »
My only word to you, Pastor Butler, is: Get vaccinated. Tell everyone around you to get vaccinated. And when advised to do so, wear a mask.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. In Minnesota. Still concerned about The Church and nation. Catholics: scandals, cover-ups. Evangelicals: hypocrisy, venality. Progressives: loss of focus. Denominations: dying. Our Constitution: In danger from crazies. Clinging, I am, to signs of hope.

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4924 on: September 27, 2021, 08:21:20 AM »
Me:
Some really mean people have suggested that very thing, and wondered if God is culling the herd. I do not agree  with those mean people.
I muse, in connection with the discussion upstream about "trust," that is is not simply whom you trust, but how you decide who is trustworthy.
This, I dare to day, means that you must be able to make your brain cells rub together in meaningful ways, that you either have some "book learning" or listen to those who do and that you recognize your limitations.
Elitist? Only if you think it's better to listen to smart people than to stupid people. Or if you think that those with some education are trying to pull the wool over your eyes at every turn.
"Gee, this stuff cures my horse from an infestation of worms, and someone says I should take it for COVID. Sorry, Trigger, I need your meds."
"Well, of course the election was rigged; those Jewish space lasers did real damage."
"Bob Woodward just wants to sell a book, he doesn't care if what's in it is true or not."
Good grief! We want people to listen to orthodox Lutheran clergy rather than semi-atheistic nutballs or modern anabaptists. Why can't we say "Listen to the smart people, not the conspiracy idiots, whose claims are being disproved every day"?

So, Charles, who is the New York City Teacher's Union listening to? They filed a lawsuit to keep the city government from enforcing a vaccine mandate. Unvaccinated teachers were supposed to get booted starting Tuesday, but on Friday a judge issued an injunction. So what do you think is the problem with these teachers? Are the uneducated? Selfish? Self-centered? Uncaring? Do they just want to kill children?  https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/25/us/new-york-city-teacher-vaccine-mandate-injunction/index.html

Or what about the nurses in upstate New York? Upstate University Hospital in Syracuse, NY just announced that it will be shutting down 22 of its 35 operating rooms. Are those nurses reading books about Jewish space lasers? Are they arguing that the election was rigged? Are these healthcare professionals uneducated? Selfish? Uncaring? (You seemed to throw those accusations around earlier.) https://www.syracuse.com/health/2021/09/upstate-university-hospital-to-shutter-ors-blaming-ny-vaccine-mandate-for-staff-shortage.html

As for silly claims, President Biden claimed today that his $3.5 trillion "Build Back Better" program costs "zero dollars." I think that's sillier--and much more  serious--than anyone taking Trigger's medicine (which, no one has done. There are human versions of that medicine. But I would think you'd actually know that. But maybe not. You think France is locking people down.)

Waiting to see what happens in NYC today as these mandates cut into the workforce.  The teachers' union perspective is that they want to be negotiating for some of the exceptions, particularly medical exceptions.  Around 70% of all NYC teachers are vaccinated, which, compared to some parts of the country, seems high.  The seventeen staff at our church pre-school are all vaccinated and we keep promoting vaccination as a congregation as an encouragement.

It turns out that one of the rationales for a religious exception is that the leader of the faith community has to be on the record consistently as being against vaccination for religious reasons.  Which means I can't be used as a source to grant an exception, nor would that work for our local leader, Bp. Lecakes. 

As to health care workers, I have no real answers, because I have done funerals and prayed for mourners of many health care workers in this part of the world who have been taken by the virus.  In their setting and with their experience, it's hard to understand why being vaccinated is seen as onerous. 

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peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4925 on: September 27, 2021, 08:47:41 AM »

As to health care workers, I have no real answers, because I have done funerals and prayed for mourners of many health care workers in this part of the world who have been taken by the virus.  In their setting and with their experience, it's hard to understand why being vaccinated is seen as onerous. 

Dave Benke
I think that's the key to the whole issue-- understanding people. Those who can't understand why anyone would object to a vaccine mandate or to getting vaccinated lack persuasive power when it comes to getting them to change their mind. It is a given, a simple fact, that many intelligent, caring people nevertheless don't want to get vaccinated or object to the rule. If your thinking can't account for that fact but can only conclude such people aren't very smart or they aren't very caring, then you have nothing to say that they are going to listen to; they already know you're point of view can't grasp their existence. I think a lot of the campaigns out there (saw the exceptionally bad "trust us" commercial again yesterday) fail because they don't first establish that the person doing the persuading understands and sympathizes with the hesitance but has something more to say to the subject.

There was a lot of talk about this in 2016 GOP primary when nobody (including me) could figure out how Trump kept winning primaries. The persuasion technique, I came to learn, is called "pace and lead." That is, FIRST you establish that you are right there in step with the crowd so that they have no doubt you see things like they do. THEN you propose various things, and the crowd will go along with it. The top-down approach to vaccination-- mandates, scolding, etc. is an attempt to lead without pacing first. 

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4926 on: September 27, 2021, 08:50:35 AM »
Monday-from the Times morning report newsletter
   The political divide over vaccinations is so large that almost every reliably blue state now has a higher vaccination rate than almost every reliably red state.
   Because the vaccines are so effective at preventing serious illness, Covid deaths are also showing a partisan pattern. Covid is still a national crisis, but the worst forms of it are increasingly concentrated in red America.
   Some of the vaccination gap stems from the libertarian instincts of many Republicans. “They understand freedom as being left alone to make their own choices, and they resent being told what to do,” William Galston has written in The Wall Street Journal.
   But philosophy is only a partial explanation. In much of the rest of the world, vaccine attitudes do not break down along right-left lines, and some conservative leaders have responded effectively to Covid. So have a few Republican governors in the U.S. “It didn’t have to be this way,” German Lopez of Vox has written.
   What distinguishes the U.S. is a conservative party — the Republican Party — that has grown hostile to science and empirical evidence in recent decades. A conservative media complex, including Fox News, Sinclair Broadcast Group and various online outlets, echoes and amplifies this hostility. Trump took the conspiratorial thinking to a new level, but he did not create it.
   “With very little resistance from party leaders,” my colleague Lisa Lerer wrote this summer, many Republicans “have elevated falsehoods and doubts about vaccinations from the fringes of American life to the center of our political conversation.”
   With the death count rising, at least a few Republicans appear to be worried about what their party and its allies have sown.
   In an article this month for Breitbart, the right-wing website formerly run by Steve Bannon, John Nolte argued that the partisan gap in vaccination rates was part of a liberal plot. Liberals like Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Anthony Fauci and Howard Stern have tried so hard to persuade people to get vaccinated, because they know that Republican voters will do the opposite of whatever they say, Nolte wrote.
   His argument is certainly bizarre, given that Democratic politicians have been imploring all Americans to get vaccinated and many Republican politicians have not. But Nolte did offer a glimpse at a creeping political fear among some Republicans. “Right now, a countless number of Trump supporters believe they are owning the left by refusing to take a lifesaving vaccine,” Nolte wrote. “In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead?”
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. In Minnesota. Still concerned about The Church and nation. Catholics: scandals, cover-ups. Evangelicals: hypocrisy, venality. Progressives: loss of focus. Denominations: dying. Our Constitution: In danger from crazies. Clinging, I am, to signs of hope.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4927 on: September 27, 2021, 09:03:47 AM »
Monday-from the Times morning report newsletter
   The political divide over vaccinations is so large that almost every reliably blue state now has a higher vaccination rate than almost every reliably red state.
   Because the vaccines are so effective at preventing serious illness, Covid deaths are also showing a partisan pattern. Covid is still a national crisis, but the worst forms of it are increasingly concentrated in red America.
   Some of the vaccination gap stems from the libertarian instincts of many Republicans. “They understand freedom as being left alone to make their own choices, and they resent being told what to do,” William Galston has written in The Wall Street Journal.
   But philosophy is only a partial explanation. In much of the rest of the world, vaccine attitudes do not break down along right-left lines, and some conservative leaders have responded effectively to Covid. So have a few Republican governors in the U.S. “It didn’t have to be this way,” German Lopez of Vox has written.
   What distinguishes the U.S. is a conservative party — the Republican Party — that has grown hostile to science and empirical evidence in recent decades. A conservative media complex, including Fox News, Sinclair Broadcast Group and various online outlets, echoes and amplifies this hostility. Trump took the conspiratorial thinking to a new level, but he did not create it.
   “With very little resistance from party leaders,” my colleague Lisa Lerer wrote this summer, many Republicans “have elevated falsehoods and doubts about vaccinations from the fringes of American life to the center of our political conversation.”
   With the death count rising, at least a few Republicans appear to be worried about what their party and its allies have sown.
   In an article this month for Breitbart, the right-wing website formerly run by Steve Bannon, John Nolte argued that the partisan gap in vaccination rates was part of a liberal plot. Liberals like Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Anthony Fauci and Howard Stern have tried so hard to persuade people to get vaccinated, because they know that Republican voters will do the opposite of whatever they say, Nolte wrote.
   His argument is certainly bizarre, given that Democratic politicians have been imploring all Americans to get vaccinated and many Republican politicians have not. But Nolte did offer a glimpse at a creeping political fear among some Republicans. “Right now, a countless number of Trump supporters believe they are owning the left by refusing to take a lifesaving vaccine,” Nolte wrote. “In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead?”
The bolded part is what shows this piece to be simple promulgation of a false narrative.

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4928 on: September 27, 2021, 09:09:18 AM »
James S. Rustad:
And perhaps we should stop worrying about those who don't get vaccinated as they will soon be immune anyway.
Me:
Or dead.
Or dead.  But mostly alive since the death rate is low about the general population, even with Delta.

I am vaccinated.  I know people who are not.  I am working to convince them to be vaccinated.  Pitching a fit like you do on this web site would not work.  The kinder, gentler way that I and others in this discussion have advocated may.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4929 on: September 27, 2021, 09:13:03 AM »
I’ll call BS on that, Peter. There are probably doctoral dissertation being written on how conservatives have turned against science, And how that has worked its way into the highest levels of the Republican party.
Am I the only one old enough here to remember how in the 1950s Adlai Stevenson was said to be a bad candidate for the presidency because he was “too smart,” and an academic “egghead”?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. In Minnesota. Still concerned about The Church and nation. Catholics: scandals, cover-ups. Evangelicals: hypocrisy, venality. Progressives: loss of focus. Denominations: dying. Our Constitution: In danger from crazies. Clinging, I am, to signs of hope.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4930 on: September 27, 2021, 09:19:40 AM »
I’ll call BS on that, Peter. There are probably doctoral dissertation being written on how conservatives have turned against science, And how that has worked its way into the highest levels of the Republican party.
Am I the only one old enough here to remember how in the 1950s Adlai Stevenson was said to be a bad candidate for the presidency because he was “too smart,” and an academic “egghead”?
If you bothered to read any actual conservatives or libertarians, you’d see them to be especially interested in science. Be it space exploration, nuclear power, GMOs, and hard science stuff or “soft science” about human behavior, gender studies, etc, it is usually the left cherry-picking what counts as “science” by defining the leftist position as the osiruon of science. There are people who think biological sex is a construct. They are all anti-science, and they are all on the left. Same with the biology of life’s origins. The pro-choice position is anti-science. The whole reputation of the right being anti science stems mainly from the global warming debate.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4931 on: September 27, 2021, 09:20:24 AM »
Vaccine mandates are ready to take affect in NY today.  They are already preparing for widespread staff shortages.  As noted by one news outlet: "Governor Kathy Hochul said a state emergency declaration and other options, including calling in health care workers from the National Guard, are on the table to address any potential hospital staffing shortages."

I understand the reasoning behind the mandates, but am struggling with whether these mandates will not create crises equal to the one they are trying to solve.  Healthcare is already woefully understaffed across the nation.  And there are looming mandates in the federal sector, including the military. Gov. Hochul may utilize the National Guard, but what if they are mandated (and they may be), and many leave the service rather than be forced to take the shot?  As one who works in a volunteer fire department I can assure you that if we were mandated we would lose personnel, men we cannot replace.  We, too, are understaffed.

I think that as mandates are rolled out across the nation are going to see other issues arise, and the government may eventually need to backtrack on this to retain much needed frontline workers. 


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ny-prepares-for-possible-staff-shortages-as-covid-vaccine-mandate-nears/ar-AAOOVvt
Pastor Don Engebretson
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Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4932 on: September 27, 2021, 09:59:54 AM »
Vaccine mandates are ready to take affect in NY today.  They are already preparing for widespread staff shortages.  As noted by one news outlet: "Governor Kathy Hochul said a state emergency declaration and other options, including calling in health care workers from the National Guard, are on the table to address any potential hospital staffing shortages."

I understand the reasoning behind the mandates, but am struggling with whether these mandates will not create crises equal to the one they are trying to solve.  Healthcare is already woefully understaffed across the nation.  And there are looming mandates in the federal sector, including the military. Gov. Hochul may utilize the National Guard, but what if they are mandated (and they may be), and many leave the service rather than be forced to take the shot?  As one who works in a volunteer fire department I can assure you that if we were mandated we would lose personnel, men we cannot replace.  We, too, are understaffed.

I think that as mandates are rolled out across the nation are going to see other issues arise, and the government may eventually need to backtrack on this to retain much needed frontline workers. 


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ny-prepares-for-possible-staff-shortages-as-covid-vaccine-mandate-nears/ar-AAOOVvt

What are the reasons given by the folks you work alongside in the volunteer fire dept. for not receiving the vaccine, given the emergency service nature of the responsibility?

Dave Benke

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4933 on: September 27, 2021, 10:00:50 AM »
Monday-from the Times morning report newsletter
   The political divide over vaccinations is so large that almost every reliably blue state now has a higher vaccination rate than almost every reliably red state.
   Because the vaccines are so effective at preventing serious illness, Covid deaths are also showing a partisan pattern. Covid is still a national crisis, but the worst forms of it are increasingly concentrated in red America.
   Some of the vaccination gap stems from the libertarian instincts of many Republicans. “They understand freedom as being left alone to make their own choices, and they resent being told what to do,” William Galston has written in The Wall Street Journal.
   But philosophy is only a partial explanation. In much of the rest of the world, vaccine attitudes do not break down along right-left lines, and some conservative leaders have responded effectively to Covid. So have a few Republican governors in the U.S. “It didn’t have to be this way,” German Lopez of Vox has written.
   What distinguishes the U.S. is a conservative party — the Republican Party — that has grown hostile to science and empirical evidence in recent decades. A conservative media complex, including Fox News, Sinclair Broadcast Group and various online outlets, echoes and amplifies this hostility. Trump took the conspiratorial thinking to a new level, but he did not create it.
   “With very little resistance from party leaders,” my colleague Lisa Lerer wrote this summer, many Republicans “have elevated falsehoods and doubts about vaccinations from the fringes of American life to the center of our political conversation.”
   With the death count rising, at least a few Republicans appear to be worried about what their party and its allies have sown.
   In an article this month for Breitbart, the right-wing website formerly run by Steve Bannon, John Nolte argued that the partisan gap in vaccination rates was part of a liberal plot. Liberals like Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Anthony Fauci and Howard Stern have tried so hard to persuade people to get vaccinated, because they know that Republican voters will do the opposite of whatever they say, Nolte wrote.
   His argument is certainly bizarre, given that Democratic politicians have been imploring all Americans to get vaccinated and many Republican politicians have not. But Nolte did offer a glimpse at a creeping political fear among some Republicans. “Right now, a countless number of Trump supporters believe they are owning the left by refusing to take a lifesaving vaccine,” Nolte wrote. “In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead?”
Was it his devotion to science that led Dr. Fauci early on to discourage mask wearing as a response to the novel Coronavirus? Was it their devotion to science that induced Democrats to decry the Trump administrations early warnings about Covid-19 as political grandstanding and attempts to distract from his many failures and early measures against its spread as typical Trump xenophobia? Was it Democratic devotion to science that led them to dismiss the Trump administration's Warp Speed vaccination initiative as an impossible pipe dream, mere distraction, and made vaccination hesitancy towards Trump's vaccine a campaign issue? Can we honestly assert that Democrats never played politics over science?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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jebutler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #4934 on: September 27, 2021, 10:13:29 AM »
I’ll call BS on that, Peter. There are probably doctoral dissertation being written on how conservatives have turned against science, And how that has worked its way into the highest levels of the Republican party.
Am I the only one old enough here to remember how in the 1950s Adlai Stevenson was said to be a bad candidate for the presidency because he was “too smart,” and an academic “egghead”?

So, are you saying that the New York Teacher's Union are filled with Republicans? Are you saying that the *science teachers* "have turned against science"?

According to BLM-NYC, 72% of blacks and hispanics are not vaccinated. Are they part of the highest levels of the Republican party? Anti-vaxxer RFK, Jr. is actually a conservative Republican, who knew?

Or is this Times article just silly and your support of it even sillier?
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis