Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 399048 times)

Michael Slusser

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3555 on: April 18, 2021, 10:35:15 PM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael

Here it is:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2027985

Peace,
Jon
Thanks!  :)
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Robert Johnson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3556 on: April 18, 2021, 11:03:00 PM »
Unfortunately, there is little evidence that mask wearing is effective in limiting the spread. If you graph any statistic (say hospitalizations) for states that have similar weather, the rise and fall of the statistic is virtually identical no matter what the mask requirement is from state to state.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3557 on: April 19, 2021, 12:39:15 AM »
The CDC strongly disagrees with the post by Robert Johnson.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html

From the CDC site:
Evidence for Effectiveness of Masks
Your mask helps protect those around you
COVID-19 spreads mainly from person to person through respiratory droplets. Respiratory droplets travel into the air when you cough, sneeze, talk, shout, or sing. These droplets can then land in the mouths or noses of people who are near you or they may breathe these droplets in.

Masks are a simple barrier to help prevent your respiratory droplets from reaching others. Studies show that masks reduce the spray of droplets when worn over the nose and mouth.

And I comment:
The "difficulties" with masks is that too many people are too lazy or too dim or too lackadaisical or to sloppy or too driven by bias to learn how to use masks properly, wear them properly and be diligent in related aspects of the proven ways masks help to mitigate the spread of the virus.
Wearing masks in crowded bars won't help.
Wearing a mask drooped below your nose is ineffective.
Wearing a mask 92 percent of the time means that remaining 8 percent of the time can trip you (and others) up.
Wearing a mask and then not washing your hands properly or at the right times is risky.
It is, it would seem to a logical person, impossible to obtain reliable statistics about measuring masks against hospitalizations or weather or "rules" in particular states. Too many variables, no ways for true control comparisons.
I ask again: So what's so difficult in these days about wearing a mask? And why are there continued efforts to undermine the data that shows they provide - not 100 percent guarantees, not perfection - but critical help?
At my advanced age, I've faced three potentially life-threatening illnesses. No treatment for any of these offered 100 percent guarantees, but there were treatments proven to be incredibly effective in bringing about a cure or saving my life or mitigating the effects of the situation. All of them involved things that were medically unpleasant, and required me to make serious "lifestyle" changes and to continue certain aspects of those treatments for the rest of my life.
Why would I not do those things?
And as for masks, one of the things that they can do is to help keep others from being infected, should I turn out to be an asymptomatic carrier of Covid 19.
Wear the damn masks. I now have about 20 in various styles and weights and configurations so that I can pick the ones appropriate for the activities of the day or - sometimes - the color of my shirt.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3558 on: April 19, 2021, 08:28:07 AM »
Thanks for the CDC link, Charles - helpful and thorough. 

With regard to vaccination, we had our best Sunday yet in Brooklyn yesterday for reporting out vaccination at the time of announcement.  It's an encouragement for all present and those watching at home.  Notably, our oldest member, 91, returned to worship fully vaccinated (and masked), a young adult is halfway home, and a man who was "celebrating" the one year anniversary of his very rough bout with COVID came to give thanks to God for health and vaccination.  An incentive and sign of hope for return to not only full worship but to the fellowship hall and Caribbean specialties.

I caught a few minutes of a show last night dedicated to bringing the reluctant into the fold.  It focused on Country and Western and NASCAR devotees.  I'm more into C/W, and Brad Paisley, who hangs out with Payton Manning in commercials, and has a nice version of "Farther Along," was featured.  "Cheer up, my brother/live in the sunshine/we'll understand it all by and by.  And go ahead and get vaccinated."

Dave Benke

John_Hannah

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3559 on: April 19, 2021, 08:41:32 AM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael

Here it is:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2027985

Peace,
Jon

Thanks much, Jon.
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3560 on: April 19, 2021, 09:48:21 AM »
And I comment:
The "difficulties" with masks is that too many people are too lazy or too dim or too lackadaisical or to sloppy or too driven by bias to learn how to use masks properly, wear them properly and be diligent in related aspects of the proven ways masks help to mitigate the spread of the virus.

Yup, it was definitely anonymous posters creating an unfriendly evnironment on the forum.   ::)
Sterling Spatz
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3561 on: April 19, 2021, 10:25:22 AM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael

Here it is:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2027985

Peace,
Jon
Thank you for bringing these articles to our attention. While primarily concerning reactions about the Covid pandemic and especially masking, it has much wider application.


For example climate change. Seems to me that the evidence for some degree of climate change has become rationally undeniable, the way the issue has become politicized and absolutized (either it is no climate change or we must immediately bring modern society to a halt and massively disrupt everybody's lives while the climate gurus continue to fly around on private jets.

Lisa Rosenbaum did a better job than I have in suggesting ways to help people see reason, and treat the people around us with dignity and compassion rather than contempt. While it may be satisfying to yell at people who do not immediately fall in line with what we consider reasonable and necessary precautions and call them morons, idiots, and uncaring for the well being of others, it rarely actually produces helpful results.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 10:31:05 AM by Dan Fienen »
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3562 on: April 19, 2021, 10:55:49 AM »
This was in my New York Times "The Morning" that comes in my email box daily.

By David Leonhardt

Good morning. Why do so many vaccinated people remain irrationally fearful? Listen to the professor’s story.

A fable for our times

Guido Calabresi, a federal judge and Yale law professor, invented a little fable that he has been telling law students for more than three decades.

He tells the students to imagine a god coming forth to offer society a wondrous invention that would improve everyday life in almost every way. It would allow people to spend more time with friends and family, see new places and do jobs they otherwise could not do. But it would also come with a high cost. In exchange for bestowing this invention on society, the god would choose 1,000 young men and women and strike them dead.

Calabresi then asks: Would you take the deal? Almost invariably, the students say no. The professor then delivers the fable’s lesson: “What’s the difference between this and the automobile?”

In truth, automobiles kill many more than 1,000 young Americans each year; the total U.S. death toll hovers at about 40,000 annually. We accept this toll, almost unthinkingly, because vehicle crashes have always been part of our lives. We can’t fathom a world without them.

It’s a classic example of human irrationality about risk. We often underestimate large, chronic dangers, like car crashes or chemical pollution, and fixate on tiny but salient risks, like plane crashes or shark attacks.

One way for a risk to become salient is for it to be new. That’s a core idea behind Calabresi’s fable. He asks students to consider whether they would accept the cost of vehicle travel if it did not already exist. That they say no underscores the very different ways we treat new risks and enduring ones.

I have been thinking about the fable recently because of Covid-19. Covid certainly presents a salient risk: It’s a global pandemic that has upended daily life for more than a year. It has changed how we live, where we work, even what we wear on our faces. Covid feels ubiquitous.

Fortunately, it is also curable. The vaccines have nearly eliminated death, hospitalization and other serious Covid illness among people who have received shots. The vaccines have also radically reduced the chances that people contract even a mild version of Covid or can pass it on to others.

Yet many vaccinated people continue to obsess over the risks from Covid — because they are so new and salient.

‘Psychologically hard’

To take just one example, major media outlets trumpeted new government data last week showing that 5,800 fully vaccinated Americans had contracted Covid. That may sound like a big number, but it indicates that a vaccinated person’s chances of getting Covid are about one in 11,000. The chances of a getting a version any worse than a common cold are even more remote.

But they are not zero. And they will not be zero anytime in the foreseeable future. Victory over Covid will not involve its elimination. Victory will instead mean turning it into the sort of danger that plane crashes or shark attacks present — too small to be worth reordering our lives.

That is what the vaccines do. If you’re vaccinated, Covid presents a minuscule risk to you, and you present a minuscule Covid risk to anyone else. A car trip is a bigger threat, to you and others. About 100 Americans are likely to die in car crashes today. The new federal data suggests that either zero or one vaccinated person will die today from Covid.

It’s true that experts believe vaccinated people should still sometimes wear a mask, partly because it’s a modest inconvenience that further reduces a tiny risk — and mostly because it contributes to a culture of mask wearing. It is the decent thing to do when most people still aren’t vaccinated. If you’re vaccinated, a mask is more of a symbol of solidarity than anything else.

Coming to grips with the comforting realities of post-vaccination life is going to take some time for most of us. It’s only natural that so many vaccinated people continue to harbor irrational fears. Yet slowly recognizing that irrationality will be a vital part of overcoming Covid.

“We’re not going to get to a place of zero risk,” Jennifer Nuzzo, a Johns Hopkins epidemiologist, told me during a virtual Times event last week. “I don’t think that’s the right metric for feeling like things are normal.”

After Nuzzo made that point, Dr. Ashish Jha of Brown University told us about his own struggle to return to normal. He has been fully vaccinated for almost two months, he said, and only recently decided to meet a vaccinated friend for a drink, unmasked. “It was hard — psychologically hard — for me,” Jha said.

“There are going to be some challenges to re-acclimating and re-entering,” he added. “But we’ve got to do it.”

And how did it feel in the end, I asked, to get together with his friend?

“It was awesome,” Jha said.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3563 on: April 19, 2021, 10:57:24 AM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael

Here it is:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2027985

Peace,
Jon
Thank you for bringing these articles to our attention. While primarily concerning reactions about the Covid pandemic and especially masking, it has much wider application.


For example climate change. Seems to me that the evidence for some degree of climate change has become rationally undeniable, the way the issue has become politicized and absolutized (either it is no climate change or we must immediately bring modern society to a halt and massively disrupt everybody's lives while the climate gurus continue to fly around on private jets.

Lisa Rosenbaum did a better job than I have in suggesting ways to help people see reason, and treat the people around us with dignity and compassion rather than contempt. While it may be satisfying to yell at people who do not immediately fall in line with what we consider reasonable and necessary precautions and call them morons, idiots, and uncaring for the well being of others, it rarely actually produces helpful results.

Good thoughts, Dan.  My wife and I, upper midwesterners by birth and by location of family members now, have had a hard time communicating across the divide when it comes to vaccination, wearing masks, immigration, climate change, and a few more.  When that drifts into politics, it becomes a throw-down of Trump v. Fauci, stuff like that which leads nowhere.  So we steer clear of the political area, even though it's intimately related to responses to the issues. 

People know that we are strongly pro-immigration because of our parish and our friend network here, and know of our position regarding the virus because we're available and visible online on those topics all the time.  The natural drift into the political is the abyss we back away from.

Dave Benke

Weedon

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3564 on: April 19, 2021, 11:04:37 AM »
The whole discussion...it so reminds me of Niedner’s observation. “Some people think the sex drive is the most powerful need of all; but any husband or wife can tell you, it’s the need to be RIGHT.” And so the horrid mischaracterizations of those idiots who might disagree with ME, and “the science.” (Cited by both sides!). Imagine a world where folks didn’t divide up into tribes on things like masks and vaccinations! Once upon a time...

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3565 on: April 19, 2021, 11:32:43 AM »
Pastor Weedon, there are indeed times for sweet idealism and soft-hearted unity and "tolerance." There are also times when such things stand in the way of health and life and civil order.
And then - at times - there must be a struggle until we either reach a compromise or - and there is nothing inherently wrong with this - one side wins.
The debate more than 100 years ago over allowing women to vote was one of those times. The time came when those who held - for what they considered good, civil, and scientific reasons - the view that women should not vote in public elections had to give way to others - and to the law of the land.
In our time the struggle for civil rights and voting rights stalled until those seeking such rights rose up, made a lot of noise, and sometimes broke things.
Most states mandate certain vaccinations before children may attend public schools. Those who question the validity of this mandate have choices to make.
This may be a time when it is necessary - for the sake of our own health and the health of our neighbor and the health of the civil order - that those advocating for strict mitigation protocols must put aside sweet charity and seek mandated compliance.
A friend in Florida has belonged to a group playing mah jong weekly. One member of the group was ordered by her son not to take the vaccine. Others in the group said, OK, if you refuse the vaccine, that's your choice, but you can't come any more.
I know of a three-generation family breaking relations with a dear cousin because the cousin refuses the vaccine.
There are things worth dividing up into "tribes." One such "tribe," admired by many, including people in this modest forum, holds certain views about our political situation for the past six months.
Another "tribe" - or perhaps just a majority of our fellow citizens - sees that group as a danger.
I am among those who see those opposing the vaccinations and mocking the masks as a danger.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Dave Likeness

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3566 on: April 19, 2021, 11:44:24 AM »
May we never forget that The Long Ranger (Clayton Moore) wore a black mask.
Of course it did not cover his nose or mouth.  He was a former Texas Ranger who
had survived a tragedy that left his fellow rangers dead.  So he dedicated his life
to bringing law and order to the old West.  He wanted to conceal his identity with
his mask.  Of course Tonto was the one who had rescued him from being badly
wounded and nursed him back to health.  Together The Long Ranger and Tonto
fought for justice against the guys who wore black hats.

Bottom Line: Whether you wear a black mask or a black hat, God loves you.

James_Gale

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3567 on: April 19, 2021, 11:52:01 AM »
The infection breakthrough rate among the fully vaccinated is .0008% (according to CDC numbers). Thus, the benefit of mask-wearing by the fully vaccinated is very close to zero, as is the risk to these people of being in the company of unvaccinated people. Even so, I certainly wouldn’t ostracize anyone who acts out of an abundance of caution or even fear by choosing not to socialize with unmasked or unvaccinated people. To each his own.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3568 on: April 19, 2021, 12:01:22 PM »
The whole discussion...it so reminds me of Niedner’s observation. “Some people think the sex drive is the most powerful need of all; but any husband or wife can tell you, it’s the need to be RIGHT.” And so the horrid mischaracterizations of those idiots who might disagree with ME, and “the science.” (Cited by both sides!). Imagine a world where folks didn’t divide up into tribes on things like masks and vaccinations! Once upon a time...


An irony of this is that we are called to be repentant by John, Jesus, and the apostles. Repentance means admitting, "I was wrong."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3569 on: April 19, 2021, 12:03:24 PM »
This was in my New York Times "The Morning" that comes in my email box daily.

By David Leonhardt

Good morning. Why do so many vaccinated people remain irrationally fearful? Listen to the professor’s story.


A fable for our times


I was planning to post this until I saw that you beat me to it.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]