Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 304077 times)

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13105
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3360 on: March 15, 2021, 11:47:11 AM »
And the time may come, as is the case with children in public schools, that these vaccinations will be required for full participation in civic life.
I do not believe that people who refuse to get the vaccine or who are opposed to the vaccinations simply lack care for their neighbors.(some are actually encouraging their neighbors not to get the vaccine.)
What they lack is common sense. And maybe some brain power?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4409
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3361 on: March 15, 2021, 11:52:06 AM »
And the time may come, as is the case with children in public schools, that these vaccinations will be required for full participation in civic life.
I do not believe that people who refuse to get the vaccine or who are opposed to the vaccinations simply lack care for their neighbors.(some are actually encouraging their neighbors not to get the vaccine.)
What they lack is common sense. And maybe some brain power?

With all due respect I'd be quite hesitant about suggesting this to my own members.  Those who are not ready to receive the vaccine have a number of reasons, and they are not due to a lack of intelligence or common sense.  While I am supportive of the vaccine, I realize that nothing is perfect, and many medicines have unintended side-effects.  Some people are waiting to see what those side-effects may be.  I respect their choice.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17035
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3362 on: March 15, 2021, 12:08:34 PM »
And the time may come, as is the case with children in public schools, that these vaccinations will be required for full participation in civic life.
I do not believe that people who refuse to get the vaccine or who are opposed to the vaccinations simply lack care for their neighbors.(some are actually encouraging their neighbors not to get the vaccine.)
What they lack is common sense. And maybe some brain power?
Except there is no evidence such people lack common sense or brain power. The few that I know are, demonstrably, just as smart and capable of living normal lives as the general public. What if some African-American leaders expressed hesitation about mandatory vaccines because of a history of medical experimentation on black people? What if it were more of a Jehovah's Witness-style religious objection to injecting foreign substances into the body? They might be wrong in their hesitation, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of common sense or brain power. It might be a healthy skepticism toward the presumed benevolence of government, a religious conviction about not violating or polluting the body, a mistrust of Big Pharma, or any number of reasons.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12248
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3363 on: March 15, 2021, 12:09:51 PM »
"Clergy Preach Faith in the COVID Vaccine to Doubters" - The New York Times (online), March 15 by Jan Hoffman
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/14/health/clergy-covid-vaccine.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210314&instance_id=28065&nl=the-morning&regi_id=96069183&segment_id=53424&te=1&user_id=f513d46ebc73b988def4c2178d04ed50

During a recent Sunday service at the Gathering Place, an evangelical church in Orlando, Fla., the Rev. Gabriel Salguero focused his sermon on the Covid-19 vaccine, and the fear and suspicion that his largely Latino congregation clutches so tightly.

He turned to the New Testament: the parable of the good Samaritan, about the importance of aiding the stranger.

“In getting yourself vaccinated, you are helping your neighbor,” he preached to about 300 masked and socially distanced worshipers. “God wants you to be whole so you can care for your community. So think of vaccines as part of God’s plan.”

Mr. Salguero is among thousands of clergy members from a cross-section of faiths — imams, rabbis, priests, swamis — who are trying to coax the hesitant to get vaccinated against Covid-19. By weaving scripture with science, they are employing the singular trust vested in them by their congregations to dispel myths and disinformation about the shots. Many are even offering their sanctuaries as vaccination sites, to make the experience more accessible and reassuring.


The article goes on to note some religious objections by Catholics and Muslims.

But what about the members of your congregation who are not receiving the vaccine for other reasons?  Even if it is medically safe - and I believe it is and have received the shots - some of my members are not yet convinced.  And some of these are those in the medical field. Their reasons for resisting the vaccine are not religious.  Do I want to step into those debates and use my 'authority' as a faith leader to push the use of vaccines?

I think that it is a risky area for pastors to use the pulpit for this purpose.  Even my neighboring LCMS parish/school is not requiring its teachers to be vaccinated.

Judy and I used ourselves as encouragers for the vaccine in announcements at church to get the ball rolling.  Subsequently, pretty much each week parishioners have come to the mic to tell their story of getting vaccinated and to encourage others.  Our council and leaders have been on the forefront of encouraging faith leaders in other local Lutheran congregations to do the same.  We've spoken through the issue of hesitation and the rationales behind that especially in the communities we serve.  We have probably a bit more open format in general than some when it comes to announcements, prayers and interaction from the worshipers, and our understanding is that prior to the invocation or after the benediction is realm of the left activity.

Most of our teachers have completed vaccination or have one dose of the two, and some are now getting the J & J one shot. 

In NY many of the faith leaders from all kinds of traditions have done the same, including - and this is important in that community - the Hasidic rabbis, who in other regards have been on the forefront of calling together large unmasked groups of worshipers and have been anti-vaxx for measles.

Dave Benke

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10376
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3364 on: March 15, 2021, 12:32:39 PM »
Suppose we go back to talking about coronavirus on this thread?
Can one moderator moderate another moderator?

You seem to have quite an obsession with the moderation of this forum.  >:(

Someone should.

OK, I've unlocked your participation. You are free to leave.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13105
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3365 on: March 15, 2021, 12:42:37 PM »
Peter writes:
Except there is no evidence such people lack common sense or brain power.
I comment:
I did not say their lack of such things was automatic.
But I do say that there is no evidence that - except for a very few medical conditions - there is any serious risk in getting the vaccine. 
So here we have a vaccine that, in the midst of a deadly pandemic where one-half million people in our country have died, will - should you contract the virus - have a 95+ percent chance of
1) keeping you from getting very sick,
2) keeping you from having to be hospitalized,
3) if hospitalized, keeping you from needing a ventilator, and
4) if sick at all, making it highly unlikely that you will die.
And by the way, it's free.
Everyone can make their own determination on what to think about people who do not get the vaccine.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42673
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3366 on: March 15, 2021, 01:03:05 PM »
And the time may come, as is the case with children in public schools, that these vaccinations will be required for full participation in civic life.
I do not believe that people who refuse to get the vaccine or who are opposed to the vaccinations simply lack care for their neighbors.(some are actually encouraging their neighbors not to get the vaccine.)
What they lack is common sense. And maybe some brain power?

With all due respect I'd be quite hesitant about suggesting this to my own members.  Those who are not ready to receive the vaccine have a number of reasons, and they are not due to a lack of intelligence or common sense.  While I am supportive of the vaccine, I realize that nothing is perfect, and many medicines have unintended side-effects.  Some people are waiting to see what those side-effects may be.  I respect their choice.


They should also consider the effects of getting the virus.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DeHall1

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3367 on: March 15, 2021, 01:06:29 PM »
Peter writes:
Except there is no evidence such people lack common sense or brain power.
I comment:
I did not say their lack of such things was automatic.
But I do say that there is no evidence that - except for a very few medical conditions - there is any serious risk in getting the vaccine. 
So here we have a vaccine that, in the midst of a deadly pandemic where one-half million people in our country have died, will - should you contract the virus - have a 95+ percent chance of
1) keeping you from getting very sick,
2) keeping you from having to be hospitalized,
3) if hospitalized, keeping you from needing a ventilator, and
4) if sick at all, making it highly unlikely that you will die.
And by the way, it's free.
Everyone can make their own determination on what to think about people who do not get the vaccine.
"...[P]olls that seek to understand the pending coronavirus vaccine indicate high levels of hesitancy and refusal among marginalized communities, too. In fact, these groups appear to be the most skeptical, with only a quarter of Black respondents and 37 percent of Hispanic respondents in the AP-NORC poll saying they would commit to getting the vaccine whenever it is available. "

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-so-many-americans-are-skeptical-of-a-coronavirus-vaccine/

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42673
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3368 on: March 15, 2021, 01:07:29 PM »
And the time may come, as is the case with children in public schools, that these vaccinations will be required for full participation in civic life.
I do not believe that people who refuse to get the vaccine or who are opposed to the vaccinations simply lack care for their neighbors.(some are actually encouraging their neighbors not to get the vaccine.)
What they lack is common sense. And maybe some brain power?
Except there is no evidence such people lack common sense or brain power. The few that I know are, demonstrably, just as smart and capable of living normal lives as the general public. What if some African-American leaders expressed hesitation about mandatory vaccines because of a history of medical experimentation on black people? What if it were more of a Jehovah's Witness-style religious objection to injecting foreign substances into the body? They might be wrong in their hesitation, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of common sense or brain power. It might be a healthy skepticism toward the presumed benevolence of government, a religious conviction about not violating or polluting the body, a mistrust of Big Pharma, or any number of reasons.

What do you see as the difference between "a healthy skepticism" and "lack of common sense"?

Can one have "a healthy skepticism" about biblical accounts, e.g., that Adam ("Humanity") and Eve ("Life") were not real people?


You seem to have no problems publicly disagreeing with me regardless of my reasons for stating what I state. Why have difficulties expressing disagreement with those who are skeptical about receiving the vaccine?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 01:10:34 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RDPreus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1187
    • View Profile
    • Christ For Us
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3369 on: March 15, 2021, 01:22:15 PM »
I don't encourage or discourage vaccinations.  It's a personal decision based on many factors.  I think I already had Covid.  I've never been tested, so I don't know for sure, but I think I had it and I assume I won't get it again.  Should I get a vaccine?  I don't know.  I do know that it's my decision to make, not the government's.  I think this is where we find a divide in America.  How much power does/should the government have over our lives?  What's ironic is that we conservatives are the liberals on this question while liberals are not so liberal.  Personal freedom entails the right to choose whether or not to submit to a medical procedure.  On vaccines, I am pro-choice.   

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17035
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3370 on: March 15, 2021, 02:00:23 PM »
And the time may come, as is the case with children in public schools, that these vaccinations will be required for full participation in civic life.
I do not believe that people who refuse to get the vaccine or who are opposed to the vaccinations simply lack care for their neighbors.(some are actually encouraging their neighbors not to get the vaccine.)
What they lack is common sense. And maybe some brain power?
Except there is no evidence such people lack common sense or brain power. The few that I know are, demonstrably, just as smart and capable of living normal lives as the general public. What if some African-American leaders expressed hesitation about mandatory vaccines because of a history of medical experimentation on black people? What if it were more of a Jehovah's Witness-style religious objection to injecting foreign substances into the body? They might be wrong in their hesitation, but it wouldn't be because of a lack of common sense or brain power. It might be a healthy skepticism toward the presumed benevolence of government, a religious conviction about not violating or polluting the body, a mistrust of Big Pharma, or any number of reasons.

What do you see as the difference between "a healthy skepticism" and "lack of common sense"?

Can one have "a healthy skepticism" about biblical accounts, e.g., that Adam ("Humanity") and Eve ("Life") were not real people?


You seem to have no problems publicly disagreeing with me regardless of my reasons for stating what I state. Why have difficulties expressing disagreement with those who are skeptical about receiving the vaccine?
I express my disagreement with people all the time. I just don't do it as pastor of the congregation as part of our Sunday gatherings unless it is a matter of Christian teaching or unless I am asked, in which case I share my views with the one who asked me, not with everyone.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 13105
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3371 on: March 15, 2021, 02:13:51 PM »
Schools have the right to insist that students be immunized against certain diseases, and that the vaccinations be verified before the students attend school. The time may come - this pandemic or the next or the next surge - that vaccinations may be required for other ways of participating in civil life.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42673
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3372 on: March 15, 2021, 02:23:34 PM »
I don't encourage or discourage vaccinations.  It's a personal decision based on many factors.  I think I already had Covid.  I've never been tested, so I don't know for sure, but I think I had it and I assume I won't get it again.  Should I get a vaccine?  I don't know.  I do know that it's my decision to make, not the government's.  I think this is where we find a divide in America.  How much power does/should the government have over our lives?  What's ironic is that we conservatives are the liberals on this question while liberals are not so liberal.  Personal freedom entails the right to choose whether or not to submit to a medical procedure.  On vaccines, I am pro-choice.   


One of our sons thinks I might have had covid, but, like you, he has not been tested for the antibodies. (He has been tested for the virus and it was negative.) He plans to get vaccinated as soon as he can (as does our other son,) because they both want the extra assurance that when we get together later this year for a family reunion, it's very unlikely that we will infect each other with the virus. We may also limit the guests we invite to those who have been vaccinated - again, for the extra assurance that we won't be spreading the virus.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3373 on: March 15, 2021, 02:53:52 PM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke
The topic is coronavirus news. The latest news is the coronavirus relief bill, which is so controversial and divisive it had to be passed in via budget reconciliation because it got literally zero support from one party. If statements that the bill is good or commentary like the Brooks piece belong in this forum, then fierce (and perfectly mainstream) dissent from that opinion also belongs in this forum. As it happens, I was focused on finding a basic point of agreement-- the relief bill was about the redistribution of wealth, not coronavirus relief. The virus was a pretext to get passed what one party always wants passed regardless of the virus. That isn't even a debatable point, it is obvious. Charles, Brooks, and I all agree that this was about addressing other perennial issues, not the coronavirus. If you find that unhelpful to the purpose of this forum, then so is your analysis of minimum wage, housing costs, and your 80% approval of the bill.

I am waiting for the invitation to Dr. Benke to leave the forum if he finds it so unhelpful, as Moderator Johnson has done on occasion to others. :)

Moderator Johnson has just proved my point.  See Reply #3364 at 12:32:39 PM today.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 03:06:17 PM by Steven W Bohler »

Steven W Bohler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3374 on: March 15, 2021, 02:56:03 PM »
Peter writes:
Except there is no evidence such people lack common sense or brain power.
I comment:
I did not say their lack of such things was automatic.
But I do say that there is no evidence that - except for a very few medical conditions - there is any serious risk in getting the vaccine. 
So here we have a vaccine that, in the midst of a deadly pandemic where one-half million people in our country have died, will - should you contract the virus - have a 95+ percent chance of
1) keeping you from getting very sick,
2) keeping you from having to be hospitalized,
3) if hospitalized, keeping you from needing a ventilator, and
4) if sick at all, making it highly unlikely that you will die.
And by the way, it's free.
Everyone can make their own determination on what to think about people who do not get the vaccine.

And the disease itself has a 99% survivability rate for just about everyone outside of the very elderly and the very ill.