Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 338166 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3315 on: March 12, 2021, 01:41:16 PM »
But hey, tell a lie often enough and people believe it.  Problem is, a lie is still a lie, no matter how many believe it.


As I've asked numerous friends on Facebook: How do you determine is something is true or fake news?


Just calling something a lie doesn't mean that it's not true.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3316 on: March 12, 2021, 01:45:51 PM »
The topic is coronavirus news. The latest news is the coronavirus relief bill, which is so controversial and divisive it had to be passed in via budget reconciliation because it got literally zero support from one party. If statements that the bill is good or commentary like the Brooks piece belong in this forum, then fierce (and perfectly mainstream) dissent from that opinion also belongs in this forum. As it happens, I was focused on finding a basic point of agreement-- the relief bill was about the redistribution of wealth, not coronavirus relief. The virus was a pretext to get passed what one party always wants passed regardless of the virus. That isn't even a debatable point, it is obvious. Charles, Brooks, and I all agree that this was about addressing other perennial issues, not the coronavirus. If you find that unhelpful to the purpose of this forum, then so is your analysis of minimum wage, housing costs, and your 80% approval of the bill.


While I see different news outlets calling it "The Covid Relief Bill," the proper title is: "American Rescue Plan." It is as much as an economic relief bill as it is about defeating the virus.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3317 on: March 12, 2021, 01:59:06 PM »
The topic is coronavirus news. The latest news is the coronavirus relief bill, which is so controversial and divisive it had to be passed in via budget reconciliation because it got literally zero support from one party. If statements that the bill is good or commentary like the Brooks piece belong in this forum, then fierce (and perfectly mainstream) dissent from that opinion also belongs in this forum. As it happens, I was focused on finding a basic point of agreement-- the relief bill was about the redistribution of wealth, not coronavirus relief. The virus was a pretext to get passed what one party always wants passed regardless of the virus. That isn't even a debatable point, it is obvious. Charles, Brooks, and I all agree that this was about addressing other perennial issues, not the coronavirus. If you find that unhelpful to the purpose of this forum, then so is your analysis of minimum wage, housing costs, and your 80% approval of the bill.


While I see different news outlets calling it "The Covid Relief Bill," the proper title is: "American Rescue Plan." It is as much as an economic relief bill as it is about defeating the virus.
I know. "Rescue" from the pandemic and its effects. The economic relief was supposed to address the negative economic impact the virus and mandated shutdowns had on employment, business, and tax revenue. It isn't as though Covid or the shutdowns were what was making it hard for minimum wage workers to afford the rent in New York City. And it isn't though Covid were the reason Illinois had a massively underfunded public pension plan.   

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3318 on: March 12, 2021, 02:13:33 PM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke

1. Perhaps it is,  But it IS true.
2. I recall that you are living in one of those deficit-spending localities that will benefit at the cost of other, more responsible places.  Maybe that spurs your howling.

John_Hannah

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3319 on: March 12, 2021, 02:14:32 PM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke
I disagree with you Dave.  I find it apt and accurate.  So is "aims of the alpb forum online" now a version of "woke" and "cancel culture" to be used to silence political reasoning deemed "incorrect" or "a level zero post in terms of helpfulness"?  That's an important consideration for me as I weigh whether to renew my subscription to FL/LF.

KEN,

I think Dave is referring to both Charles and Peter. We are now under the new rules where neither "woke"/"cancel culture" NOR "unwoke"/"uphold culture" are discussed here unless there is a bearing on church and theology. The new bill, however interesting and engaging on either side, does not meet the standard. It can be discussed elsewhere.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3320 on: March 12, 2021, 02:17:26 PM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke
The topic is coronavirus news. The latest news is the coronavirus relief bill, which is so controversial and divisive it had to be passed in via budget reconciliation because it got literally zero support from one party. If statements that the bill is good or commentary like the Brooks piece belong in this forum, then fierce (and perfectly mainstream) dissent from that opinion also belongs in this forum. As it happens, I was focused on finding a basic point of agreement-- the relief bill was about the redistribution of wealth, not coronavirus relief. The virus was a pretext to get passed what one party always wants passed regardless of the virus. That isn't even a debatable point, it is obvious. Charles, Brooks, and I all agree that this was about addressing other perennial issues, not the coronavirus. If you find that unhelpful to the purpose of this forum, then so is your analysis of minimum wage, housing costs, and your 80% approval of the bill.

I am waiting for the invitation to Dr. Benke to leave the forum if he finds it so unhelpful, as Moderator Johnson has done on occasion to others. :)

JEdwards

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3321 on: March 12, 2021, 02:38:32 PM »
This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish.
Perhaps.  But there is also an argument to be made that there are many men who already know how to fish, and would fish, but have no fishing pole.  Buying a fishing pole for such a person may be a reasonable investment for society to make.

Peace,
Jon

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3322 on: March 12, 2021, 03:27:12 PM »
This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish.
Perhaps.  But there is also an argument to be made that there are many men who already know how to fish, and would fish, but have no fishing pole.  Buying a fishing pole for such a person may be a reasonable investment for society to make.

Peace,
Jon
Fair enough. I’m all about Distribitism. But it has nothing to do with rescuing America or Covid relief.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3323 on: March 12, 2021, 05:35:28 PM »
What are you guys afraid of? My view is a minority here. My views on almost everything have been constantly rejected in this modest forum over the past six or seven years. Previously my views they were better received in ALPB circles.
The bill just passed is intended to help the nation’s recovery, economically, and more importantly in terms of aid people need in order to go on living, paying their rent, providing for their children, and hanging on to their low paying jobs, which will remain low paying because we cannot agree on a minimum wage.
The spiritual and moral questions here have to do with our attitudes towards our neighbors in need. Are we willing to help our neighbor? To what extent? In what matters?
The previous administration, I believe, considered “neighbors“ as rich people and corporations. We should be speaking of our neighbors as poor people and those barely making it because of economic and social injustice.
Dismissing the recovery act as simply  a power grab by democrats is atrocious.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 10:58:13 PM by Richard Johnson »
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Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3324 on: March 12, 2021, 09:13:08 PM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke
The topic is coronavirus news. The latest news is the coronavirus relief bill, which is so controversial and divisive it had to be passed in via budget reconciliation because it got literally zero support from one party. If statements that the bill is good or commentary like the Brooks piece belong in this forum, then fierce (and perfectly mainstream) dissent from that opinion also belongs in this forum. As it happens, I was focused on finding a basic point of agreement-- the relief bill was about the redistribution of wealth, not coronavirus relief. The virus was a pretext to get passed what one party always wants passed regardless of the virus. That isn't even a debatable point, it is obvious. Charles, Brooks, and I all agree that this was about addressing other perennial issues, not the coronavirus. If you find that unhelpful to the purpose of this forum, then so is your analysis of minimum wage, housing costs, and your 80% approval of the bill.

You're a moderator.  Moderate.  "While the grownups are away" is a perfectly useless addendum, not "fierce dissent" but just plain old fashioned useless.
Moderate. 

There are ways for the dialog to be dialog.  Moderate.

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3325 on: March 12, 2021, 11:09:23 PM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke
The topic is coronavirus news. The latest news is the coronavirus relief bill, which is so controversial and divisive it had to be passed in via budget reconciliation because it got literally zero support from one party. If statements that the bill is good or commentary like the Brooks piece belong in this forum, then fierce (and perfectly mainstream) dissent from that opinion also belongs in this forum. As it happens, I was focused on finding a basic point of agreement-- the relief bill was about the redistribution of wealth, not coronavirus relief. The virus was a pretext to get passed what one party always wants passed regardless of the virus. That isn't even a debatable point, it is obvious. Charles, Brooks, and I all agree that this was about addressing other perennial issues, not the coronavirus. If you find that unhelpful to the purpose of this forum, then so is your analysis of minimum wage, housing costs, and your 80% approval of the bill.

You're a moderator.  Moderate.  "While the grownups are away" is a perfectly useless addendum, not "fierce dissent" but just plain old fashioned useless.
Moderate. 

There are ways for the dialog to be dialog.  Moderate.

Dave Benke
One perfectly useless addendum does not a "post of zero usefulness make." To use the kind of parlance you normally appreciate, consider it a "mostly substantive" post.   

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3326 on: March 13, 2021, 12:19:11 AM »
Orthodox Great Lent begins at sundown Sunday.

It is time for me to abstain from as many things as possible that arouse the passions .

See y'all in May.
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

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Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3327 on: March 13, 2021, 08:13:00 AM »
Brooks has his worries, and I agree with some of them:
However he concludes:
“But income inequality, widespread child poverty and economic precarity are the problems of our time. It’s worth taking a risk to tackle all this.”
Exactly. The relief bill has almost nothing to do with coronavirus relief, which is not the problem of our time among serious people anyway. The idiotic response to the virus has been the problem of our time. Massive redistribution of wealth by the federal government, which Democrats always favor, pandemic or not, is all this really is, and it uses the virus as a pretext. That's why Democrats and blue state have been keen to hype the dangers and keep people in a panic; without a perceived "crisis" people would never support trillions of dollars of deficit spending. So, never let a crisis go to waste even if you have to hype up a crisis. 

The bill does not nothing to solve income inequality of child poverty in any long term sense. This is not teaching a man to fish, it is buying a man a fish. It is stupendously short-sighted, opportunistic, partisan, dangerous, and just plain bad. It bails out deficit spending state and local governments without insisting on any reform to keep them from needing to be bailed out again down the road. It is Democrats having the keys to the candy store while the grownups are away.

This is a level zero post in terms of helpfulness to the aims of the alpb forum online. 

Dave Benke
I disagree with you Dave.  I find it apt and accurate.  So is "aims of the alpb forum online" now a version of "woke" and "cancel culture" to be used to silence political reasoning deemed "incorrect" or "a level zero post in terms of helpfulness"?  That's an important consideration for me as I weigh whether to renew my subscription to FL/LF.

I agree with Pastor Kimball. Peter's post was about coronavirus news. The spending bill is about coronavirus relief, or so our ruling class would have us believe. Maybe 50% of the 1.9 trillion applies to covid relief? Some could argue for a higher percentage and some could argue for a lower percentage. Mayor Quentin Lucas of KC is grateful for the relief that's coming to the city because the forecast is for a $76 million budget deficit. So the covid relief is going to cover that?! Some can argue that's entirely appropriate and some can argue that is complete misappropriation.

I also agree with Pastor Kimball that your assumption of what alpb forum opinion is supposed to be seems a little presumptuous. You may think Peter's post was a zero on the helpfulness scale. That's fine. I put on at a six or seven.  I guess I will show myself out except I've already paid my money. But I won't expect to see any invitation to the alpb skyboxes. I'll be in SRO with the other schlubs.

And Charles, you can go back quite a few pages to see that Peter already has been vaccinated and expressed his delight in how smooth and efficient the process was. And now that he has his vaccination passport, he'll be allowed to celebrate Fourth of July with his ration of one bratwurst, 7 briquettes of charcoal, plain yellow mustard, Heinz ketchup (can't deprive Kerry of his cash), and one can of Natural Light or Boone's Farm strawberry wine.

Jeremy

John_Hannah

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3328 on: March 13, 2021, 08:40:43 AM »
Still, the discussion here of the new bill has shown zero bearing on church and our ministry. It has been pure politics which is interesting but does not belong here as I understand the new rules for this, the ALPB Forum Online.    :)

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3329 on: March 13, 2021, 09:54:51 AM »
I would contend, John, that these days’ discussions of “politics“, that is, how the nation spends its money, has a great deal to do with morality and compassion and care for our neighbor. It also has much to do with our view of government. Someone here thinks our government is simply “the ruling class.“ That is, a warped view of government today. Now if one wanted to apply that term to huge corporations and the big money power in the world…
I will say it again. I believe the biggest moral problems today have to do with our civic, communal life. Racism. Sexism. How we allot our resources. The protection of our natural resources. The protection of our democracy and the founding principles of our country.
These ought to be much bigger concerns for our churches than who communes at what altars or whether today’s Presbyterians are 16th century Calvinist.
Perhaps the problem is that we face these issues most directly in our nearby, local communities. (all politics is local.) that makes some issues were important than others, depending on where you live and who lives near you. On the other hand, we do not live totally in our local communities. We are a nation; and we are a nation that is part of a worldwide community of nations. Local politics, and “local“ theology have global implications.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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