Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 195552 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2790 on: November 19, 2020, 09:35:59 AM »
How does tasking the police with enforcing mask rules affect "Defund the Police." Perhaps we should deputize ordinary citizens to spy on their neighbors.
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2791 on: November 19, 2020, 09:45:22 AM »
In my county this is on their website:


Online Complaint Report for Violations of Emergency Order 1- Relating to preventing the spread of COVID-19 by requiring face coverings in certain situations.

This form is to be used for individuals wishing to file a complaint on a violation of Emergency
Order #1- Related to preventing the spread of COVID-19 by requiring face coverings in certain
situations. Complaints are reviewed by the Langlade County Health Department and education will be provided. If/when deemed necessary complaints may be forwarded to the district attorney.

Please DO NOT call 911 to report a face covering
violation.

*Anonymous complaints will not be followed up on*


I am not personally aware of anyone I know who has been "reported" for violations of the governor's orders.  I do wonder if other areas have or will adopt similar reporting venues for gathering restriction violations.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2792 on: November 19, 2020, 09:45:58 AM »
Where does any governor get the idea that he or she can simply issue mandates? Why should anyone listen to the governor’s orders on wearing a mask in their own home? Do the applicable state constitutions outline the limits of this kind of authority? I’ve heard of governors having the authority to clear public spaces, like keeping vehicles off the roads in a blizzard. But those are public spaces. But the governor can’t order you to brush your teeth, change your sheets, or do anything in your own home. He can forbid certain things, but he can’t demand that you do certain things. It seems to me that mayors and governors are just making up powers for themselves.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2793 on: November 19, 2020, 09:49:30 AM »
Where does any governor get the idea that he or she can simply issue mandates? Why should anyone listen to the governor’s orders on wearing a mask in their own home? Do the applicable state constitutions outline the limits of this kind of authority? I’ve heard of governors having the authority to clear public spaces, like keeping vehicles off the roads in a blizzard. But those are public spaces. But the governor can’t order you to brush your teeth, change your sheets, or do anything in your own home. He can forbid certain things, but he can’t demand that you do certain things. It seems to me that mayors and governors are just making up powers for themselves.

Republican legislators are challenging our governor's mask mandate.  "The Wisconsin Supreme Court is hearing arguments on whether to strike down the state's mask mandate being challenged by conservatives as an unconstitutional overreach of power by Democratic Gov. Tony Evers."

https://www.wisn.com/article/coronavirus-wisconsin-supreme-court-considers-face-mask-mandate-challenge/34688417#
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2794 on: November 19, 2020, 09:59:58 AM »
Where does any governor get the idea that he or she can simply issue mandates?

In many states Governors derive their ability to issue mandates from "emergency powers" acts.

Most of these EPAs appear to have been enacted in the early 1970's in the wake of the late 60's civil unrest, although some came early in the Cold War.

Some, but not all, of these EPAs placed a strict limitation on the duration of the emergency, sometimes subject to indefinite renewal (as appears to be the case in Michigan), sometimes without expiration (as appears to be the case in Pennsylvania) and rarely subject to ratification by the legislature after a specified period of time.

There are serious constitutional issues at play; and I hope that Pr. Kirchner and David Garner weigh in.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2795 on: November 19, 2020, 10:23:40 AM »
Can the state mandate that I have to have fire detectors in my house? The state does that.
Can the state mandate that I am required to clear the snow off my walks and driveway? The state does that.
Can the state mandate that my children must be vaccinated before I send them to school? The state does that.
And as noted upstream, and certain emergency situation, the state is given additional authority to exercise temporary control over certain things.
So long as some people are so idiotic as to not wear the mask or follow the guidelines, these emergency actions are needed.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

Julio

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2796 on: November 19, 2020, 10:35:00 AM »
The fact that the nations largest school district in New York City has been shattered is telling.

The Democratic machine of New York state government and New York city government is no more capable of controlling the virus spread than the President of the United States!

 Where are the screeds concerning the failure of New York state and city to control the virus?

Why can’t we simply admit that our Triune God is in control of the situation and his power “trumps” all politicians and political whims.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2797 on: November 19, 2020, 10:42:59 AM »
Can the state mandate that I have to have fire detectors in my house? The state does that.
Can the state mandate that I am required to clear the snow off my walks and driveway? The state does that.
Can the state mandate that my children must be vaccinated before I send them to school? The state does that.
And as noted upstream, and certain emergency situation, the state is given additional authority to exercise temporary control over certain things.
So long as some people are so idiotic as to not wear the mask or follow the guidelines, these emergency actions are needed.
The state does lots of things. The fact that I asked where the governor gets the idea that he can do things by decree and you responded by listing all kinds of things “the state” does via votes of elected legislators shows just how comfortable the left is with authoritarianism, while projecting that weakness onto Trump supporters.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2798 on: November 19, 2020, 10:48:28 AM »
I don't think that anyone ultimately argues with the need for some regulation. And even with some regulation, as noted, there are exceptions.  I have a number of conservative Mennonites living around me now.  Like the Amish they have some exemptions.  I know that there are people who feel that the government should regulate the education of every child, or have a direct say in it if private options are exercised.  The public school, of course, has a stake in this regarding state and federal funds which are often tied to the number of registered students.  As a one-time homeschooler I understand the pressures, subtle and otherwise, against private education.  Yet for all intents and purpose my Mennonite neighbors seem yet largely untouched by state regulations.  But there is thinking in some quarters that we can't trust parents to do what is felt a government run agency can do better.  And that extends beyond this.  Herein we enter some pretty tricky areas. 

I get the mask thing.  I abide by it religiously.  But the family gathering limitations seem to be creeping close to, if not exceeding, the fine line of outside governmental control.  The numbers given seem rather arbitrary to begin with.  And we have seen that the limits are applied at times rather arbitrarily as well.  Even the shutdown time for bars seemed odd.  If you think bars are 'super spreader' places, shut them down altogether.  How does it spread more after 10 p.m.?  And now Cuomo is shutting down in-person classes in his state's school system because it surpassed an arbitrary 3% limit.  Even some experts are calling that into question, noting that the schools might be one of the safer places to be. 

It is unfortunate that the government feels compelled to micromanage the domestic activities of individual lives and families.  As I noted before, many are following my governor's mandate.  Stores set the example with their own requirements.  We don't need police going around to enforce that which we should be able to make responsible personal and private judgements about.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2799 on: November 19, 2020, 11:01:09 AM »
Peter:
It seems to me that mayors and governors are just making up powers for themselves.

Me:
To what end? Do you think the governors are plotting to take over control of our lives?
Can’t you recognize the emergency nature of the situation? Should we wait six months or more  to pass laws about public health measures? By then hundreds and thousands of more people will be dead.
It is absurd to accuse “the left” with being soft on authoritarianism. I’m almost ready to accuse “the right” with being idiotically libertarian.
As I have said before and will say elsewhere, we are in a war. Anyone who does not recognize that emergency measures must be taken during these times is simply not paying attention to the reality of the situation.

Pastor Engebretson writes:
We don't need police going around to enforce that which we should be able to make responsible personal and private judgements about.
I comment:
You cannot possibly be that naïve. We should be able to make responsible decisions about how fast to drive in a school zone. But we’re not.We should be able to make responsible decisions, private decisions, about the safety equipment on our cars and inspection of our automobiles. But we’re not.
Foolish people will say: “oh, it’s all right to have the cousins and their significant others and some random friends fill the house on Thanksgiving day.” No, it isn’t. Not when you don’t know where those random people came from Or where they will go after they leave.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

jebutler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2800 on: November 19, 2020, 11:03:12 AM »

Governor Cuomo pushed back saying that law enforcement does not have the choice of which laws they will enforce. 


Has the man never heard of DACA?

I went riding with a police officer one night. We saw all kinds of underage drinking going on. I asked him about it. He said that if they arrested every teenager drinking illegally, they wouldn't have time for anything else. So they let it go unless there was another issue, e.g. assault and then it would be added.

This just goes to show that Cuomo isn't a serious man. Maybe he should go back to hawking his posters and books.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2801 on: November 19, 2020, 11:11:44 AM »
If your neighbor was illegally or unsafely burning leaves in his backyard (like we all used to do in the 50s when it was legal), wouldn’t you report it?
School teachers are required to report it if a child appears to have been abused.
We all have a role to play in keeping our neighbors and the public safe.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2802 on: November 19, 2020, 11:13:32 AM »
The Governor of Minnesota proclaimed a new Executive Order yesterday as cases have risen in the state.
Of new reported deaths, clearly reported by Pulitzer Prize-winning Star Tribune health care reporter Jeremy Olson:

"Wednesday’s 67 deaths included 51 people who lived in long-term care, residents who were at elevated risk due to" their age and underlying health problems. More than 80% of COVID-19 deaths in Minnesota have involved people 70 or older, and more than 68% have involved long-term care residents."

Almost all of the deaths are reported to have affected elderly people with chronic or acute underlying health conditions.

The new Executive Order: https://mn.gov/governor/assets/EO%2020-99%20Final%20%28002%29_tcm1055-454239.pdf
orders a 4-week "dial-back" of gatherings and social activities.

The State Health Department issued their follow-up directive, focused on "Youth and Adult Sports":
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/sportsguide.pdf.

The new EO includes as its top bullet point: Social Gatherings Prohibited.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2803 on: November 19, 2020, 11:16:45 AM »
If your neighbor was illegally or unsafely burning leaves in his backyard (like we all used to do in the 50s when it was legal)...

The "we all" is overstated, a universal when it may apply only to some areas. 
No one burned leavers in their backyard in my town in the 50s, legally or illegally. 
It was socially unacceptable to lay your burden of smoke and soot on your neighbors.  Common sense.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #2804 on: November 19, 2020, 11:24:22 AM »
Got it, Randy Bosch. They were old, close to death anyway. They were sick, that probably would have killed them anyway.
But others are sick and dying too. You want to write them off also?
I am at times inclined to say of someone who won’t take precautions, “OK, they will get sick and maybe die and then the world will have one less fool in it.” But I won’t say that.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.