Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 589558 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1695 on: May 22, 2020, 06:23:08 PM »
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-opinion-coronavirus-europe-lockdown-excess-deaths-recession/

The conclusion of this piece appears to be that how strictly a government locks down the people has no real bearing on how many people end up dying from the virus.

Jim Butler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1696 on: May 22, 2020, 06:25:51 PM »
Oh for heaven sakeís! This has really taken a turn towards a silly side of the street. You are not interested in discussing what I think, youíre only interested in saying that Iím wrong. Yes, my Darkside scenario was obviously my imagination at work. Iím imagining how things might be if this all went to a really bad ending.
Just give it up. You may be right And this is the most egregious violation of the First Amendment since Hector was a pup. I donít think it is.
Let it go. If youíre convinced youíre right, start the letter writing campaign, get out in the street and demonstrate; do whatever the hell you wanna do. You havenít convinced me and Iím not trying to convince you.
If I am so Jackalope wrong all the time, then just ignore what I say. Why let it get you all wound up?
And once again, we digress.

Charles is getting upset.

Maybe the isolation is getting to him. https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1697 on: May 22, 2020, 09:28:06 PM »
Wade's right.  (You don't hear that too often, do you brother!) 

The Missouri District has been great with their communication about covid responses and about ministry practices all around.  The Kansas District has also done a great job.  I am blessed (?) to be in KCMO so we pay attention to what happens in both MO and KS. 

Having family and friends throughout the Southeastern District, their response has also been good and appropriate. 

And I think this leads to a problem of a different stripe.  So many of my church members have connections throughout the US.  They'll send me emails with links to what the Northwest District is doing, what South Wisconsin, Pacific Southwest, Southern, Mid-South, NE, Atlantic, Central Illinois...  They are all good and helpful.  But they are not entirely applicable.  The governor of WA and the governors of KS and MO are not all doing the same thing because they are not responding to the same situation. 

My response to the emails is, "Thanks.  I'll give it a look." 

Information overload is the problem.  Time to digest the information, reflect for a minute, and see how it applies is needed, not more information. 

Well, I think all the districts that I have seen information for has been all very good and timely. 

Jeremy

It's good to hear that approaches from the "governors" of each district are coming out, coming through, and remain specific to situation. 

One of my peeves along the way is that we're talking about the "re-opening" of churches.  We have not closed for a minute here in Brooklyn, in the center of the heart of corona death and infection.  The Body of Christ remains the Body of Christ, nourished through word and prayer, contact and community, active in acts of love in our communities through essential workers, health care workers, and in caring for those who have gotten sick, need to remain home, and have lost loved ones.  Been open.  Remain open.  Remain by grace wise to the folly of coming together in any sizeable group in person. 

We were going to apply for one of the testing sites that are now possible at churches.  And neighborhood parishioners contacted me to say, "Please don't."  As they explained it, the sidewalks aren't wide enough, there is absolutely nowhere to park on these blocks, and the long lines would only tangle up essential workers moving to and fro with testees who may be infected, and create confusion.  We need to stay safe. We need to get tested.  But we can't be safe and get tested here in the middle of the block (which is where our church is, right in the middle of a residential block).  What does this mean?  The Body of Christ is open and discerning its ministry to one another and to its neighborhood.

Somebody says the churches need to pray now more than ever so open up.  Hello?  We have been praying all along, more fervently than ever, and the discernment in prayer has been NOT to come together in large groups. 

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1698 on: May 22, 2020, 09:32:58 PM »
But nowhere else is the world is as bad as New York in this, and there is no evidence that these measures are accomplishing anything. If somebodyís clothes caught fire and the governor ordered everyone to stop, drop, and roll in the mud, people would complain, and those complaints would not stem from lack of sympathy for the guy whose clothes were flaming.

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1699 on: May 22, 2020, 09:50:21 PM »
But nowhere else is the world is as bad as New York in this, and there is no evidence that these measures are accomplishing anything. If somebodyís clothes caught fire and the governor ordered everyone to stop, drop, and roll in the mud, people would complain, and those complaints would not stem from lack of sympathy for the guy whose clothes were flaming.

I'm not sure what your thought process is.  So you're saying if we in New York City had simply kept bringing 6 million people a day into Manhattan, overcrowding our trains with a million a day on them, plus our buses and other mass transit, packing our schoolkids off, and having our various pro sports and amateur sports venues open, to say nothing of the 10000 restaurants and clubs, the result would have been the same as what we've had?  If by stating "there is no evidence that these measures are accomplishing anything" that's where you are leading, then my advice to you is to bring all your people back for a massive celebration and barbeque with no PPE this weekend.  Go for it.

Dave Benke

Richard Johnson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1700 on: May 22, 2020, 10:05:51 PM »

One of my peeves along the way is that we're talking about the "re-opening" of churches.  We have not closed for a minute here in Brooklyn, in the center of the heart of corona death and infection. 

Well said.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

RevG

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1701 on: May 22, 2020, 10:25:55 PM »
But nowhere else is the world is as bad as New York in this, and there is no evidence that these measures are accomplishing anything. If somebodyís clothes caught fire and the governor ordered everyone to stop, drop, and roll in the mud, people would complain, and those complaints would not stem from lack of sympathy for the guy whose clothes were flaming.

I'm not sure what your thought process is.  So you're saying if we in New York City had simply kept bringing 6 million people a day into Manhattan, overcrowding our trains with a million a day on them, plus our buses and other mass transit, packing our schoolkids off, and having our various pro sports and amateur sports venues open, to say nothing of the 10000 restaurants and clubs, the result would have been the same as what we've had?  If by stating "there is no evidence that these measures are accomplishing anything" that's where you are leading, then my advice to you is to bring all your people back for a massive celebration and barbeque with no PPE this weekend.  Go for it.

Dave Benke

The challenge with all of this is that hindsight is 20/20.  It is easy to now say we should never have done the lockdown in light of the results that we now have, but we really didn't know what were in for.  That said, the evidence is showing that the lockdowns may be hurting more than helping at this point.  Social distancing still needs to be in place.  It makes sense that NYC had the numbers it had in light of these like mass transit and population density.  The rest of the country is much more spread out, even LA is suburban by NYC standards.  South Dakota which didn't shut down still has less cases per 100,000 people than California which was the first to shutdown.  Though, those states a very different it still should make one take a step back and reconsider some things. 

The scary part is that this does not currently bode well for NYC.  Tax revenues are down because the wealthy have fled and businesses are shuttered.  Here's an interesting article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8345543/NYC-businesses-companies-skip-rent-payments-shutdown-drags-on.html 

Peace,
Scott+

DCharlton

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1702 on: May 22, 2020, 10:35:52 PM »
President Trumps speech today will almost guarantee that ELCA churches won't hold public worship until September. My bishop had asked us not to start up again before the end of May.  Now he is saying we should wait until "phase 3" begins.  It seems like we're staying closed just to show that he's wrong.
 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1703 on: May 22, 2020, 10:45:09 PM »
Can we at least agree, as one (and perhaps, the only) lesson learned that

One size does NOT fit all

whether those doing the measuring and rule-making be civil authorities or eccleisastical hierarchs.

New York City is not upstate New York.

New York is not South Dakota.

Solutions appropriate to one location are not necessarily appropriate to another.

Maryland Governor Hogan took a very rational approach one week ago when he transferred all opening/closing decisions to the County level, believing that those closest to their local situation were best informed and equipped to what was best for those entrusted to their care.

On the ecclesiastical level something similar is happening within Orthodoxy.  The Synod of Canonical Orthodox Bishops has stated that decisions are best left to the local Metropolitans or Bishops.  Some, like Bishop Mark of the Eastern Pennsylvania Diocese of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) are letting many decision rest on the parish level, subject to his review.  He acknowledges that some parishes in the greater Philadelphia area do not want to open beyond live streaming but others are eager and ready.

Orthodox economia at its best.

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Rob Morris

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1704 on: May 22, 2020, 10:49:52 PM »
One of my peeves along the way is that we're talking about the "re-opening" of churches.  We have not closed for a minute here in Brooklyn, in the center of the heart of corona death and infection.  The Body of Christ remains the Body of Christ, nourished through word and prayer, contact and community, active in acts of love in our communities through essential workers, health care workers, and in caring for those who have gotten sick, need to remain home, and have lost loved ones.  Been open.  Remain open.  Remain by grace wise to the folly of coming together in any sizeable group in person. 

I totally get what you're saying here, and it's a message worth delivering. But if you've "been open" and "remain open", what has my church been? "Open-er"? "Open-est"? You made the hard choice to close your doors to public attendance. I made the hard choice to keep mine open (the only church in my town that did so). As NYC-ers like to say, "not for nothing" that's a difference.

I point it out because to act like openly and publicly gathering in worship is somehow accidental to who we are as Church does not lead good places theologically and ecclesiologically.

Keep doing what you're doing. You have my prayers and support. But surely you understand why the longing is there to "re-open" where doors have been closed and surely you know what is meant by it. And may God sustain you and your flock until you, too, can "re-open" your doors to larger gatherings.

James J Eivan

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1705 on: May 22, 2020, 11:10:38 PM »
President Trumps speech today will almost guarantee that ELCA churches won't hold public worship until September. My bishop had asked us not to start up again before the end of May.  Now he is saying we should wait until "phase 3" begins.  It seems like we're staying closed just to show that he's wrong.
Thank you for confirming that there is way too much politics involved in what should be a medical decision.  The issues currently being contested in Minnesota indicate that in addition to politics, money influences decisions that should be should be made independent of the almighty dollar.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1706 on: May 22, 2020, 11:19:48 PM »
Somebody will have to explain to me how the Minnesota provisions concerning churches are affected by money. Who makes money by keeping churches closed? How does opening other segments of the economy - which will "make money" or at least get some simoleons circulating - have anything to do with churches?
Now note that even the Roman Catholics say us older folks should not go to church. That's a bit of inconsistency because it says younger folks can get infected and will maybe (note maybe) make it, and therefore get out to mass.
But many comments on the open/close/partly/full/yes/no/maybe spectrum have goofball tags bedecking their garments.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:10:44 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

James J Eivan

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1707 on: May 22, 2020, 11:56:42 PM »
Somebody will have to explain to me how the Minnesota provisions concerning churches are affected by money. Who makes money by keeping churches closed? How does opening other segments of the economy - which will "make money" or at least get some simoleons circulating - have anything to do with churches?
Now note that even the Roman Catholics say us older folks should go to church. That's a bit of inconsistency because it says younger folks can get infected and will maybe (note maybe) make it, and therefore get out to mass.
But many comments on the open/close/partly/full/yes/no/maybe spectrum have goofball tags bedecking their garments.

Previously posted ....
Quote from: LCMS Minnesota District Presidents
We were disappointed to find that instead, you allowed retail and other non-critical businesses to open, setting a plan in place for bars and restaurants to reopen while limiting churches to meetings of ten people or fewer. In the absence of a timeline or any other assurances that churches will soon be able to reopen, we find that we must move forward with our religious exercise in a safe manner.
It seems rather disingenuous to believe that bar and restaurant patrons are better prepared to social distance than those who gather in sanctuaries across the state.  More ironic is that many of the bar restaurant patrons are being denied the right and privilege to social distance in sanctuaries in the same manner as they are allowed in the establishments the governor has allowed to open.

Perhaps the good people of Minnesota should elect a governor the caliber of the 20th Governor 100 years ago.
Bars and restaurants bring much more money into state coffers ... churches ... not so much.  So thatís how money is involved. Add to that the Minnesota Governor is hard core pro abortionist, he has BOTH money and grudge reasons to unjustly use his powers against the vocally pro-life Lutheranís and Roman Catholics.


Perhaps citing the Roman Catholic statement you reference concerning Ďus older folks should go to churchí would lend an air of authenticity to the statement.


Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1708 on: May 23, 2020, 12:13:53 AM »
the archbishop has told elderly Catholics in Minnesota that they should not go to church
There are examples from all over the country showing church services, evangelism rallies, and similar gatherings as occasions where the virus was spread rapidly.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1709 on: May 23, 2020, 12:18:07 AM »
the archbishop has told elderly Catholics in Minnesota that they should not go to church
There are examples from all over the country showing church services, evangelism rallies, and similar gatherings as occasions where the virus was spread rapidly.

And thus our 21st Century Neroes and their journalistic cheerleaders blame the Christians....

Pastor Austin, you may hibernate until Kingdom come.  That is YOUR choice.

I would not choose such an existence, but I respect your right to choose.

Please respect the right of those who choose quality of life over quantity.*

*"Quantity" being very subjective and subject to the latest med fad.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:25:29 AM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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