Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 399091 times)

James J Eivan

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1635 on: May 21, 2020, 12:41:16 PM »
(other than being about 5 inches too short for my weight)
Perhaps someone ought to tell Speaker Pelosi that President Trump is 5 inches to short for his weight as well. 8)

jebutler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1636 on: May 21, 2020, 12:42:45 PM »
Pastor Bohler, I am thinking of going to one of your churches on Sunday that’s having an open service in defiance of the governor’s order. And then I could talk to some people about how that’s working out for them, how they feel about their actions and what precautions they are taking while they have their services. I noticed that many of your churches here are rather small, and it would be rather easy for them to meet without violating any social distancing policies.
Maybe the moderators of this modest forum would designate me as an official ALPB guy, and I could write something for the forum or the newsletter about the experience.
But we shall see.

They will not be open this Sunday, May 24, but the following Sunday, May 31.

That means there is more than a week during which time the governor can modify his order.

Meanwhile, Massachusetts, that hot bed of right wing politics, has given guidance for churches to reopen as of last Monday. We are taking a "go slow" approach and will be reopening in a couple of weeks, but some churches will host worship in their sanctuaries this Sunday.

My guess is that Becket Law will be filing a Federal lawsuit on behalf of several Minnesota churches to change the governor's order. There is just no reason in the world why a restaurant can reopen but not a church; it's religious discrimination pure and simple.
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1637 on: May 21, 2020, 12:48:33 PM »
Already done.

"In federal lawsuit, two Minnesota churches ask judge to fully reopen places of worship"

https://www.startribune.com/in-federal-lawsuit-two-minnesota-churches-ask-judge-to-fully-reopen-places-of-worship/570562572/
Don Kirchner

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Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1638 on: May 21, 2020, 12:56:31 PM »
Pastor Bohler (about What I might’ve written)
Yes, I get it.  Journalists know all kinds of ways of slanting stories to lead readers to the desired conclusion.  I don't care.

Me:
No, you don’t get it. My “desired conclusion” was to see what was happening in churches, including yours. Those words I might have written were not a “slant.” Why would I want to “lead” anyone In this?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1639 on: May 21, 2020, 01:15:52 PM »
(other than being about 5 inches too short for my weight)


Very well played.  I'll have to deploy that line myself.

From a "Cheers" episode:

Woody: "What you up to Mr. Peterson?
Norm: "My ideal weight, if I were 7 feet tall"

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1640 on: May 21, 2020, 01:17:13 PM »
Pastor Bohler (about What I might’ve written)
Yes, I get it.  Journalists know all kinds of ways of slanting stories to lead readers to the desired conclusion.  I don't care.

Me:
No, you don’t get it. My “desired conclusion” was to see what was happening in churches, including yours. Those words I might have written were not a “slant.” Why would I want to “lead” anyone In this?

OK, Scoop.

jebutler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1641 on: May 21, 2020, 02:15:59 PM »
Already done.

"In federal lawsuit, two Minnesota churches ask judge to fully reopen places of worship"

https://www.startribune.com/in-federal-lawsuit-two-minnesota-churches-ask-judge-to-fully-reopen-places-of-worship/570562572/

I find the MN AG's response in the article interesting: "But I don't need to see the specifics of the lawsuit to know that it's a distraction from what we all need to be focused on — fighting the pandemic," he said. "If the plaintiffs want to choose filing a political lawsuit over working with us to chart a course to reopen Minnesota safely, they can. But let's be clear that they're choosing to play politics rather than focus on keeping people safe."

All he has to do is say why a restaurant can be open, but a church cannot.

And it seems to me that the churches are focusing on "chart[ing] a course to reopen Minnesota safely." His administration is one that is "choosing to play politics."
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1642 on: May 21, 2020, 02:27:11 PM »

Pastor Fienen
So, you're going as an investigative journalist not a worshiper? Really showing your regard for LCMS churches.
I comment:
Your extremist vein pops out again.
First, there is nothing “investigative” about what I propose. It is simple, daily journalism focusing on a situation in the news, using the ABCs of the profession. This has nothing to do with “regard” for LCMS or any other church body. Your district presidents sent a public letter, threatened to sue the state; you’re in the public eye.
   Were I still attached to a news desk, this is what I would do; or have someone do (and I’ll bet someone is already planning to do it).
   1. Call the heads of the jurisdictions – a few Catholic Bishops, the two LCMS district presidents, ELCA bishops, Methodist Bishops, a few others. Get their take on what the response has been to their letter. The Minnesota Council of Churches supports the governor’s plan. Talk to some of their people.
   2. Call some pastors. Who is opening up? Who isn’t? Why or why not? What precautions are you putting in place? Any special concerns?
   3. Then on Sunday: Have reporters at three or four churches. Who comes? How many? What do people say? How are the services handled? (Yes, we would take up space in the church. Tough.) How do people feel afterward?
   I see a 1,500-word story (a bit long, but...), some pull-out quotes, maybe a box on whatever statistics might be available, and a bunch of pictures.
And now, the old firehouse dog retires to his comfy rug on the floor; knowing that when the bell rings, he will not be hopping on the truck.


I'm not sure that I can get you to understand my concern, Charles. As you describe it, your purpose for attending a worship service would not be to worship but to gain the kinds of information that you would need if you were preparing a news story. Heaven forbid that you would actually go to an LCMS church to worship! I suppose actually worshipping in an LCMS church would threaten to contaminate your pristine faith. No, you are thinking about attending because you are curious, not about what is preached about Jesus, but because you are curious about their response to Covid-19 and the governor's orders.


You can blather all you want about respecting the LCMS as being a Lutheran Church body in which the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, but here you have indicated that those things that would make them a Lutheran Church do not concern you, even attending you do not intend to join in worship but to observe how they respond to Covid-19 and the governor.

I guess that I am simply being hypersensitive to be offended that it doesn't occur to you to maybe worship in an LCMS church rather than just be their to observe how their reaction to Covid-19 and their governor is going. To you, LCMS churches are less worshipping communities, much less a community in which you could to some extent worship, than they are curiosities and what would be potential stories for an active journalist.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 02:32:24 PM by Dan Fienen »
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1643 on: May 21, 2020, 05:08:09 PM »
Already done.

"In federal lawsuit, two Minnesota churches ask judge to fully reopen places of worship"

https://www.startribune.com/in-federal-lawsuit-two-minnesota-churches-ask-judge-to-fully-reopen-places-of-worship/570562572/

I find the MN AG's response in the article interesting: "But I don't need to see the specifics of the lawsuit to know that it's a distraction from what we all need to be focused on — fighting the pandemic," he said. "If the plaintiffs want to choose filing a political lawsuit over working with us to chart a course to reopen Minnesota safely, they can. But let's be clear that they're choosing to play politics rather than focus on keeping people safe."

All he has to do is say why a restaurant can be open, but a church cannot.

And it seems to me that the churches are focusing on "chart[ing] a course to reopen Minnesota safely." His administration is one that is "choosing to play politics."

Given that the Department of Justice recently warned California over a similar matter, it seems likely that Minnesota's rules will soon be changing.

The measures Gov. Gavin Newsom enacted to slow the spread of the coronavirus and his plans to unwind them may discriminate against religious groups and violate their constitutional rights, the U.S. Justice Department warned in a letter Tuesday.

In a three-page letter to the governor, Eric S. Dreiband, an assistant attorney general and the head of the Justice Department’s civil rights division, said Newsom had shown “unequal treatment of faith communities” in restricting their abilities to gather and ultimately reopen.

“Simply put, there is no pandemic exception to the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights,” Dreiband wrote.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1644 on: May 21, 2020, 05:26:52 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
I'm not sure that I can get you to understand my concern, Charles. As you describe it, your purpose for attending a worship service would not be to worship but to gain the kinds of information that you would need if you were preparing a news story.
Me:
Yeah, I have done that. When it was my job to do that. And I might do it again, if any news organization wants my help in covering how churches around me are dealing with the governor's order or ignoring it. If I'm not preparing a story, I probably won't do that. So you can relax. (But not yet)

Pastor Fienen:
Heaven forbid that you would actually go to an LCMS church to worship! I suppose actually worshipping in an LCMS church would threaten to contaminate your pristine faith.
Me:
Good grief! Are you so insecure and do you so enjoy making yourself a victim? I actually have gone to an LCMS church to worship. I might do so again. Wouldn't mind spending some time with Bishop/DP Benke's people. No one in the LCMS can "conntaminate" my faith; even though certain people in the LCMS can remind me of my need for charity and repentance.

Pastor Fienen:
No, you are thinking about attending because you are curious, not about what is preached about Jesus, but because you are curious about their response to Covid-19 and the governor's orders.
Me:
Yep. Thinking about it. Maybe I'll do it. Maybe not. Watch for where the lightning strikes me dead so you will know where and whether I did it.

Pastor Fienen:
You can blather all you want about respecting the LCMS as being a Lutheran Church body in which the Gospel is preached and the sacraments administered, but here you have indicated that those things that would make them a Lutheran Church do not concern you, even attending you do not intend to join in worship but to observe how they respond to Covid-19 and the governor.
Me:
See above.

Pastor Fienen:
I guess that I am simply being hypersensitive to be offended that it doesn't occur to you to maybe worship in an LCMS church rather than just be their to observe how their reaction to Covid-19 and their governor is going.
Me:
Yes, you are hyper-something, mostly about how you think you are being victimized.

Pastor Fienen:
To you, LCMS churches are less worshipping communities, much less a community in which you could to some extent worship, than they are curiosities and what would be potential stories for an active journalist.
Me:
Well, let's consider this line of thought, even though you silly statement about what I might do is wrong.
In high school one summer, I made a point of attending a different church every Sunday (sometimes in addition to the one to which I belonged). I was curious about how they worshipped, what it felt like, what I would hear and/or see. I crossed all kinds of denominational and other lines.
I went as a "church tourist." So what? Is it a moral failing to want to experience or learn about the churches not your own?
Then, of course, as a reporter I went to a lot of services and activities where my "job" - remember that? - was to observe what was going on and write about it.
I went as a reporter. So what?
Is it your opinion that the only reason anyone should ever set foot in a church is to worship?
In another arena, I am not a fan of big-time sports. Don't have much use for them, especially for attending games. But a couple of times each year, I go to a baseball or football game to be with friends and family, to have the "experience." I'm generally bored crazy by the fourth inning or the second quarter and I never care who wins, but there you are.
So, Sue me, God. Sue me, Major League Baseball. Sue me, National Football League.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

RevG

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1645 on: May 21, 2020, 05:43:07 PM »
I think it may surprise some on here given the general portrayal of the greater NYC area and the northeast as being a liberal bastion.  Like anything else it is much more nuanced than that.  An interesting read from the NY Post: https://nypost.com/2020/05/20/end-new-york-citys-lockdown-now/?fbclid=IwAR3Qj5O3YHWSDP8XbmPvWIUc_8lvYuo-LXdPDStsvky8ilL2kDHalD8VOH4

People are antsy in these parts, too.

Peace,
Scott+

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1646 on: May 21, 2020, 05:44:42 PM »
BTW, One might wonder whether the Catholics and the LCMS are using this tragic situation to make some "points" about the alleged "threats" to religion they see taking place or taking a chance to get in some swipes at a liberal governor or to position themselves on what they see as the "right" side of a political dust-up.
What role did the Beckett people have in bringing the LCMS into this particular strategy?
We have many many examples of how churches are serving their people during the current situation that do not require violating civil standards for safety.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Eileen Smith

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1647 on: May 21, 2020, 06:16:34 PM »
BTW, One might wonder whether the Catholics and the LCMS are using this tragic situation to make some "points" about the alleged "threats" to religion they see taking place or taking a chance to get in some swipes at a liberal governor or to position themselves on what they see as the "right" side of a political dust-up.
What role did the Beckett people have in bringing the LCMS into this particular strategy?
We have many many examples of how churches are serving their people during the current situation that do not require violating civil standards for safety.

This comment may pass blithely by without a nod or (unless I skipped some of the conversation on this thread) may open a bit of a can of worms.  I think in making such a remark we, in the ELCA, should first look at our own log.  With great respect of Bishop Eaton I will say that I am disappointed that this pandemic has been used to bring up the list of "isms."  My own Bishop, Tracie Bartholomew, has done the same.  Is it true that this pandemic has hit areas of poverty harder than other areas of the country - the data supports that.  Looking at a quick description of racism, "Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined...."  In speaking with some pastors and deacons this week on the subject it was offered that the pandemic has hit the black community hard (very true) as well as Latino, Hispanic, etc.  But these are not the only people living in poverty.  There are many white people who have lived in poverty for generations, not able to pull themselves out.  I'd go as far to say that to suggest only those in poverty are non-whites is a form of racism.  We are, in a sense, labeling them and while trying to help those in poverty we are creating chasms.  To use a pandemic that has brought so many deaths not only in this country but globally to continue this rhetoric is no better than suggesting that a church body may see the hope for the end of the church.  I fully acknowledge that racism exists.  But to overlook many white people who do live in poverty to make a point gets us no where except to further the distance in races.  Could we simply not acknowledge that sadly this pandemic has been more prevalent among those in poverty -- and those in nursing/assisted facility housing -- than in other demographics. 

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1648 on: May 21, 2020, 08:27:17 PM »
BTW, One might wonder whether the Catholics and the LCMS are using this tragic situation to make some "points" about the alleged "threats" to religion they see taking place or taking a chance to get in some swipes at a liberal governor or to position themselves on what they see as the "right" side of a political dust-up.
What role did the Beckett people have in bringing the LCMS into this particular strategy?
We have many many examples of how churches are serving their people during the current situation that do not require violating civil standards for safety.

Better get out the battered old fedora with the "Press" tag stuck in the band, Scoop, and find out.  The world needs to know.  And only you can get to the bottom of it.  Just when you think you were out, they pull you back in again!  To to the Scoop-mobile!

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1649 on: May 21, 2020, 08:33:20 PM »
The time will come for you, too, Pastor Bohler, when you are no longer activated in your calling. You will find it interesting, and at times, bittersweet. What you will not find in retirement, if you cherish your calling, is that  people making fun of it is amusing.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.