Coronavirus news

[Dave Benke]

Interesting parallels between today's opposition to the COVID vaccines and the opposition to the polio vaccine?

One Lonely, Wealthy Man's Crusade Against the Polio Vaccine

That's a great article, James.  I think a difference today is the multiplication of anti-vaxx crusaders and conspiracy theorists. 

At Thanksgiving dinner yesterday with family, we the oldsters were talking specifically about polio, and the vaccine.  In Milwaukee back then, a ubiquitous phenomenon was the outdoor common drinking fountain constructed in such a way that we called them "bubblers."  And when polio was at its worst, the bubblers were abandoned for fear of contracting polio. 

Then came the vaccine.  Although we were, of course, educated at Lutheran schools, that didn't include kindergarten in most Lutheran systems, so my sister was at the public school.  She described the entire class of 35 or more standing on a line in a hallway, and the vaccine being administered shot in the arm one arm after another.  Not a peep from a parent.  Same at the Lutheran school.  Not a peep from a parent.  Not a qualm about vaccination.

A factor that should be mentioned is that Jonas Salk was a hero to virtually the entire country.  He didn't patent the vaccine or take any profit from it.  In the 50s Midwest, he was something we would by nature not have trusted.  He was a New York City Jew.  Not on the radar, at least not in a positive way.  But our parents had us give thanks to God at the dinner table for Dr. Salk, and for his vaccine. 

Dave Benke

The fact that polio was a very different story for children than Covid probably factors into that difference. My guess is that if children were dying or being permanently crippled in droves by Covid, parents would have them lined up for the vaccine.

That's true - on the other hand, since the opposite end of the age spectrum was at highest risk, the adult kids would have, you would think, been lining their parents up for the vaccine.  In some parts of the country both the adult kids and parents were dead set against it, and many have paid the price.  Our home zip is at 85% fully vaccinated which is right up there near the top, even as our church zip 11208 is only at 2/3 and has a very high rate of infection (1 of 6) and death (1 in 200).  Lots of those folks were senior citizens.

Secondly, though, today's painting of "the science" as a bad thing, or as a totally holy thing, has painted science into a corner it can't get out of.  It's demonstrable, provable, and always has to be tested against the latest evidence.  Ergo it can be used as punching bag or high priestly knowledge of the divine.  In this case, as Charles has stated many, many times, the best science and scientists give evidence of the abundant positivity to taking the vaccine.  I serve a church with lots of vaccine hesitancy.  I've brought health professionals in, and will continue to do so, in special settings, but it doesn't erase all hesitancy.  Human beings are involved.  We're pretty complex organisms, fearfully and wonderfully made.

Dave Benke

[Robert Johnson]

A factor that should be mentioned is that Jonas Salk was a hero to virtually the entire country.  He didn't patent the vaccine or take any profit from it.  In the 50s Midwest, he was something we would by nature not have trusted.  He was a New York City Jew.  Not on the radar, at least not in a positive way.  But our parents had us give thanks to God at the dinner table for Dr. Salk, and for his vaccine.

Dr. Salk was a researcher at the University of Pittsburgh. I was in grade school in the early 1950s in western Pennsylvania.

I remember getting gamma globulin shots at school as a polio preventative. They were massive; I was a 2nd grader, and I got 2 big vials. They hurt, and a lot of kids fainted. I now know that was a clinical trial that basically failed.

Shortly thereafter, we got the Salk vaccine, also at school. We got it so early I am fairly sure we were guinea pigs for that treatment, too. (We were less than a hundred miles from Pittsburgh, so basically local for that purpose.)

Two things:

• Polio was such a horrible disease people were highly motivated to prevent it.
• In the early 1950s, there was a lot of basic trust in authorities. Part of it was the successful conclusion to World War 2, and part of it was because the public just didn't have much information about government screw-ups.

But the Salk vaccine worked, and the world became a better place quickly.

[peter_speckhard]

https://notthebee.com/article/germany-is-now-requiring-the-covid-vax-in-order-to-be-euthanized

[peter_speckhard]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-gov-kathy-hochul-state-of-emergency-omicron-variant

So far, there have been zero cases detected in the US, but New York has already declared a state of emergency, which could limit elective surgeries.

[Charles Austin]

Again, Peter, if it turns out this is not a dangerous situation, what is being done is difficult but not a catastrophe. On the other hand, if what is being done turns out to be the smartest, safest thing to do,  it would limit the spread of the virus and everybody wins.
BTW, and folks do not like to hear me say this, but better that action than what was done by your guy, now The Ex, at the beginning of the pandemic, which was, in effect, nothing.

[David Garner]

https://notthebee.com/article/germany-is-now-requiring-the-covid-vax-in-order-to-be-euthanized

To be fair, COVID can kill you, so you don't want to catch a deadly disease if you're dying.

To be fair the other direction, if you're going to get euthanized anyway, who cares what chemical you're putting in your body?

[Dan Fienen]

Again, Peter, if it turns out this is not a dangerous situation, what is being done is difficult but not a catastrophe. On the other hand, if what is being done turns out to be the smartest, safest thing to do,  it would limit the spread of the virus and everybody wins.
BTW, and folks do not like to hear me say this, but better that action than what was done by your guy, now The Ex, at the beginning of the pandemic, which was, in effect, nothing.

Nothing like his purely reactionary, xenophobic travel restrictions early on which were, like nothing, unlike Pres. Biden's prudent and totally reasonable travel restrictions now imposed in response to the Omicron variant.

[peter_speckhard]

Again, Peter, if it turns out this is not a dangerous situation, what is being done is difficult but not a catastrophe. On the other hand, if what is being done turns out to be the smartest, safest thing to do,  it would limit the spread of the virus and everybody wins.
BTW, and folks do not like to hear me say this, but better that action than what was done by your guy, now The Ex, at the beginning of the pandemic, which was, in effect, nothing.

You truly are fixated on Trump. Trump, who managed to get the vaccine out in record time- far faster and more effectively than Europe or anyone else managed to do--  after "your guy" and his party said it was impossible and his running mate said she wouldn't take one just because the president said to, has nothing to do with this anymore. The only thing that has changed at a national level regarding travel bans is that barring travel from sub-Saharan Africa or Asia is no longer racist now that a Democrat is doing it.

Declaring preemptive states of emergency is no problem as long as you don't whether anyone pays attention to them. Your take on the boy who cried wolf must be that if there was a wolf, he did the right thing, and if it turned out there was no wolf, well, no harm, no foul. States of emergency also conveniently get around the need for votes by representatives, so that those who say that their opponents are trying to subvert democracy can subvert democracy.

[peter_speckhard]

Again, Peter, if it turns out this is not a dangerous situation, what is being done is difficult but not a catastrophe. On the other hand, if what is being done turns out to be the smartest, safest thing to do,  it would limit the spread of the virus and everybody wins.
BTW, and folks do not like to hear me say this, but better that action than what was done by your guy, now The Ex, at the beginning of the pandemic, which was, in effect, nothing.

The Governor orders a halt to elective surgeries and Charles is totally cool with it because it does no harm, after posting multiple times what a hardship his postponed elective knee surgery was.

[Charles Austin]

My governor did not order a halt to elective surgeries. Hospital management did that.
My complaint has to do with the fact that it is the unvaccinated people, now sick, who taking up the hospital rooms, including post-op and ICU. . Ppostponing my elective surgery is difficult, painful and may mean I have to be in a wheelchair for a time but it is not life threatening. some other things for other people could be much more difficult.
But in the grand scheme of things, what we small few think here about the situation doesn't mean very much

[Dave Benke]

According to a copy of the order, the state will utilize the "Surge and Flex system," which allows the Department of Health to limit non-essential and non-urgent hospital procedures in situations where a hospital has less than 10% staffed bed capacity.

Having been down this road locally, the details are important.  This order does not limit the non-essential procedures until the surge in hospitalization has filled it to 90%.  Then the DOH is "allowed to limit." 

Here's a NYT review of a documentary soon to air on National Geographic on Long Island Jewish hospital, which is five minutes from our home.  Strong stuff, well-reviewed:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/18/movies/the-first-wave-review.html.  And the documentary offers on the ground proof, if it's needed, that you do not want to go through another major surge in a major metropolitan area without resources and actions in place.

So in my estimation at this time, Hochul's order is appropriate based on experience in a highly populated area of the United States.  It's about having a flex approach that can be implemented quickly. 

Dave Benke

[James S. Rustad]

My governor did not order a halt to elective surgeries. Hospital management did that.
My complaint has to do with the fact that it is the unvaccinated people, now sick, who taking up the hospital rooms, including post-op and ICU. . Ppostponing my elective surgery is difficult, painful and may mean I have to be in a wheelchair for a time but it is not life threatening. some other things for other people could be much more difficult.
But in the grand scheme of things, what we small few think here about the situation doesn't mean very much

If the government orders a halt to elective surgeries because the hospitals are nearly full (because of people with COVID), that's reasonable and prudent and you won't complain about it.

If a hospital calls a halt on elective surgeries because it is nearly full (because of people with COVID), that's horrible and you complain about the unvaccinated who are causing the problem.

Yep.  I think I understand you now.

[Charles Austin]

Understanding this humble correspondent is not the purpose of this forum. Stick to the issues.

[peter_speckhard]

According to a copy of the order, the state will utilize the "Surge and Flex system," which allows the Department of Health to limit non-essential and non-urgent hospital procedures in situations where a hospital has less than 10% staffed bed capacity.

Having been down this road locally, the details are important.  This order does not limit the non-essential procedures until the surge in hospitalization has filled it to 90%.  Then the DOH is "allowed to limit." 

Here's a NYT review of a documentary soon to air on National Geographic on Long Island Jewish hospital, which is five minutes from our home.  Strong stuff, well-reviewed:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/18/movies/the-first-wave-review.html.  And the documentary offers on the ground proof, if it's needed, that you do not want to go through another major surge in a major metropolitan area without resources and actions in place.

So in my estimation at this time, Hochul's order is appropriate based on experience in a highly populated area of the United States.  It's about having a flex approach that can be implemented quickly. 

Dave Benke

Those are important details. The article I read made it seem like they were already cancelling surgeries. But the main issue is preemptive states of emergency. Why would it hurt to issue this order once some cases showed up? A perpetual state of emergency will only erode trust further. Covid has been around a couple of years now and the variants might just keep on coming. Best to limit declarations of emergency to when they're unavoidable. Something voted on is always more trustworthy than something declared.

[Dave Benke]

According to a copy of the order, the state will utilize the "Surge and Flex system," which allows the Department of Health to limit non-essential and non-urgent hospital procedures in situations where a hospital has less than 10% staffed bed capacity.

Having been down this road locally, the details are important.  This order does not limit the non-essential procedures until the surge in hospitalization has filled it to 90%.  Then the DOH is "allowed to limit." 

Here's a NYT review of a documentary soon to air on National Geographic on Long Island Jewish hospital, which is five minutes from our home.  Strong stuff, well-reviewed:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/18/movies/the-first-wave-review.html.  And the documentary offers on the ground proof, if it's needed, that you do not want to go through another major surge in a major metropolitan area without resources and actions in place.

So in my estimation at this time, Hochul's order is appropriate based on experience in a highly populated area of the United States.  It's about having a flex approach that can be implemented quickly. 

Dave Benke

Those are important details. The article I read made it seem like they were already cancelling surgeries. But the main issue is preemptive states of emergency. Why would it hurt to issue this order once some cases showed up? A perpetual state of emergency will only erode trust further. Covid has been around a couple of years now and the variants might just keep on coming. Best to limit declarations of emergency to when they're unavoidable. Something voted on is always more trustworthy than something declared.

Yes.  Best bet is some sort of flexible approach at the local level.  Certainly in blue state/red state New York State, Suffolk County out on Long Island, is both less densely populated and also very leery of state mandates.  In the inner Metro ring, the city mandates are often more heavy-duty than the state.  We seriously don't want to go back to virtual education, and whatever is being done that allows the school system to continue in person will be met with approval.  And the new mayor is going to/had better address public transportation as one of the top two or three agenda items upon taking office.

Dave Benke