Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 686880 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5505 on: November 17, 2021, 06:03:05 PM »
Good grief, Peter! The things you choose to believe!

Does this ring a bell with you, Rev. Austin?  "....you are a dog with the wrong bone. I neither endorse, nor do I discredit the information posted. I just provided it, and told the source."

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5506 on: November 17, 2021, 06:09:30 PM »
Casting doubt on the vaccinations is just a dangerous and irresponsible thing to do. No, they arenít perfect protection. But it is 190% clear that they prevent hospitalizations, and they prevent deaths.
In Minnesota, hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated people, to the point where people with grave illnesses and serious needs for tests and surgeries are not able to get them.
I simply do not understand this mania for attempting to discredit the value of vaccination or for spreading information about those cases, and yes, they do exist, where the vaccines arenít 100% effective.
Those who refuse vaccinations, except for those very very very small number who might have a medical reason for doing so, and those who cast doubt on the value of vaccinations are foolish and dangerous.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5507 on: November 17, 2021, 06:10:11 PM »
Good grief, Peter! The things you choose to believe!
Iím happy not to believe it, but I have no reason not to. Why do you believe what you believe? You choose to believe people who are demonstrably untrustworthy. So be it. The website linked is called The Skeptic. They probably try to do a lot of debunking. Show me their error and Iíll stop believing them. I donít even know that I believe theyíre doing their analysis correctly. Raw Statistics are deceptively hard to glean meaning from. But I have no real reason to think the UK is above monkeying with the numbers. They knowingly allowed countless rapes of young girls rather than let events upset their preferred narrative about immigration. What makes you think they suddenly changed and would never stoop to that kind of thing again?

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5508 on: November 17, 2021, 06:21:17 PM »
Casting doubt on the vaccinations is just a dangerous and irresponsible thing to do. No, they arenít perfect protection. But it is 190% clear that they prevent hospitalizations, and they prevent deaths.
In Minnesota, hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated people, to the point where people with grave illnesses and serious needs for tests and surgeries are not able to get them.
I simply do not understand this mania for attempting to discredit the value of vaccination or for spreading information about those cases, and yes, they do exist, where the vaccines arenít 100% effective.
Those who refuse vaccinations, except for those very very very small number who might have a medical reason for doing so, and those who cast doubt on the value of vaccinations are foolish and dangerous.

Can you prove that they prevent hospitalizations or deaths?  How would one do that?  You can't prove any such thing.  You can say this person was (or was not) vaccinated and did (or did not) end up in the hospital or die.  But you can't prove the opposite would have happened had an unvaccinated person been vaccinated, or a vaccinated person not been vaccinated.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5509 on: November 17, 2021, 06:38:09 PM »
You ought to give it up, Pastor Bohler. Youíre grasping at straws, and I no longer care what you think, nor will I waste another minute of time trying to convince you of your error. I just hope that not many people listen to you on this subject. They could die.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5510 on: November 17, 2021, 06:39:28 PM »
I like reading science articles. I wish I better understood probabilities and statistics, just as I wish I knew more about or could better follow discussions of quantum physics. Iím not afraid of contrary ideas. I also know how propaganda works and that it has a place. But letís assess. Many people donít get the vaccine because they donít trust the experts assuring them they should get vaccinated. Everyone who trusts those experts is already vaccinated. So weíre discussing the unvaccinated who are likely distrustful of appeals to authority. The only way to change that situation is for those authorities to demonstrate an understanding of their skepticism and have answers to their objections. When you refuse even to consider anything that might validate doubt about vaccines, all you really validate in the only audience that matters is the unvaccinated personís doubts about you and the authorities you trust.  See? theyíll say. They donít even want to look at the science or consider other possibilities. They just want blind obedience. I know many unvaccinated people, and Iíll bet I could talk one of them into getting vaccinated using this article as a discussion starter far faster than you could by scolding and calling them irresponsible and dangerous for even drawing attention to the article.

JEdwards

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5511 on: November 17, 2021, 09:36:38 PM »
Can you prove that [vaccines] prevent hospitalizations or deaths?  How would one do that?  You can't prove any such thing.  You can say this person was (or was not) vaccinated and did (or did not) end up in the hospital or die.  But you can't prove the opposite would have happened had an unvaccinated person been vaccinated, or a vaccinated person not been vaccinated.
If that is your evidentiary standard, then all medical research is futile, since it is impossible simultaneously to give and to withhold a treatment from the same individual. The best that can be done, even in principle, is a randomized, controlled trial; and these trials have repeatedly and consistently shown that vaccination does in fact reduce hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID. In these trials, the determination of whether a death was due to COVID was made by someone with no knowledge of the individualís vaccination status.

Peace,
Jon

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5512 on: November 17, 2021, 10:32:17 PM »
JEdwards writes (my emphasis added):
The best that can be done, even in principle, is a randomized, controlled trial; and these trials have repeatedly and consistently shown that vaccination does in fact reduce hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID.

I comment:
Thank you and amen.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5513 on: November 17, 2021, 10:53:20 PM »
JEdwards writes (my emphasis added):
The best that can be done, even in principle, is a randomized, controlled trial; and these trials have repeatedly and consistently shown that vaccination does in fact reduce hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID.

I comment:
Thank you and amen.
Which isn't what the article I linked to was talking about. It was talking about what slows the spread of the disease, and whether the vaccinated are more likely to get infected than the unvaccinated. When you deal with facts and reason, you simply take note of things. When we deal in propaganda, everything gets reduced to whether it promotes the preferred behavior or not. As I said before, the unvaccinated are not going to be convinced by people who don't seem to understand why they might not trust the same sources of information or who think they are just stupid and uncaring. When you dismiss some article or study not because you can point out flaws in it but merely because you're afraid that other people might take it wrong and therefore not behave the way you want them to, you simply play into their hands. You prove to them that they are right not to trust to you.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5514 on: November 17, 2021, 11:11:41 PM »
Peter, you are becoming more distant, more icy, more puzzling and more incomprehensible than usual.
Let me try a simple question. Do you believe the vaccination prevent illness, hospitalizations, and deaths?
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5515 on: November 18, 2021, 12:23:53 AM »
Peter, you are becoming more distant, more icy, more puzzling and more incomprehensible than usual.
Let me try a simple question. Do you believe the vaccination prevent illness, hospitalizations, and deaths?
In all likelihood, yes. Iím vaccinated. But if five years from now some study shows in retrospect that the truth was otherwise about the good vaccines did, I wonít be stunned. I donít see why you have such disdain for anyone who disagrees about the efficacy of the vaccine. I know several unvaccinated people who will not get vaccinated. They are neither stupid nor uncaring. There is nothing distant or icy about respecting other peopleís choices for themselves.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5516 on: November 18, 2021, 12:28:56 AM »
For another view (and I didn't have register to read it). Being skeptical, I wonder if sites that require e-mails are really sources of e-mail info for advertisers. I had a friend whose daughter worked for a company that promoted political issues that was really a business for collecting addresses and e-mails that they sold to other companies.

https://theconversation.com/no-vaccinated-people-are-not-just-as-infectious-as-unvaccinated-people-if-they-get-covid-171302
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 12:32:14 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5517 on: November 18, 2021, 04:56:59 AM »
Peter writes:
I donít see why you have such disdain for anyone who disagrees about the efficacy of the vaccine.
I comment:
   The concern is not whether they have an opinion about the efficacy of the vaccine. The concern is whether they recognize that unvaccinated people pose a threat to others and that vaccinated people are less likely to get sick, be hospitalized or die. You seem to agree with this, but still say it doesn't matter as far as what people actually do.
If five years from now we learn something different, OK, that's possible; what matters today is how we care for ourselves and our neighbors.

Peter:
I know several unvaccinated people who will not get vaccinated. They are neither stupid nor uncaring.
Me:
On the matter of the vaccine, they do not seem very smart and their needs to be some expansion in their view of "caring" for others.

Peter:
There is nothing distant or icy about respecting other peopleís choices for themselves.
Me:
And if their "choices" are to smoke tobacco products, drink too heavily, pack their arteries with fat-filled food, take potentially fatal drugs, walk the libertine side of the street sexually, run a factory belching pollution - need to earn a living, right? - or put a sign in front of their store saying "English only," you respect those choices? I don't.
   Those of us who work with alcoholics often hear "I know, but I'm only hurting myself." To which we respond, "Think about it. You hurt your family, your friends and their relationships with you, your co-workers, and the people you are likely to kill while driving."
   Today, I believe, those refusing the vaccinations are doing harm to their neighbors and the civil order. (See next post)
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5518 on: November 18, 2021, 05:19:18 AM »
Minnesota hospitals are overflowing with Covid cases, the vast majority of them people who have refused the vaccinations.
   I have a personal stake in this.
   My left knee - totally destroyed, probably because of decades of skiing and running - now delivers crippling pain, making it almost impossible to walk significant distances, and by mid-day usually means I do not want to walk on it at all, although I must because the normal duties of the day need to be done, and my visually-impaired wife cannot do them.
   The knee replacement was to be Dec. 2, but will probably not take place then because it is "elective surgery" and the crowded hospitals have no beds and lack enough staff to handle post-op care. I do not know when I will be able to schedule the surgery; and there are hundreds of people like me.
   More importantly, there are hundreds of people who need testing and other surgical procedures to remove aggressive cancers, correct conditions worse than my bum knee, or alleviate other problems, some of them potentially life-threatening.
   My niece, a nurse here for nearly 30 years, says the Covid patients in the hospitals critically impact care for hundreds and hundreds of people. The CEO of a major hospital coalition here has been on television pleading for people to get vaccinated and take precautions (those ineffective masks  ::) , for example) so that health care can be provided for their neighbors.
   Beloved Spouse and I will manage, and we have access to various types of care, which we will use if necessary. But many people do not have this, and they will suffer needlessly, largely because too many people have refused to be vaccinated.
   Beloved Spouse and I get our booster shots this afternoon, after she sees the neurologist about the compressed disk fracture that cut short our New Jersey trip and makes her walking difficult. I hope she will not need anything requiring a hospital bed.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

John_Hannah

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5519 on: November 18, 2021, 06:47:44 AM »
Minnesota hospitals are overflowing with Covid cases, the vast majority of them people who have refused the vaccinations.
   I have a personal stake in this.
   My left knee - totally destroyed, probably because of decades of skiing and running - now delivers crippling pain, making it almost impossible to walk significant distances, and by mid-day usually means I do not want to walk on it at all, although I must because the normal duties of the day need to be done, and my visually-impaired wife cannot do them.
   The knee replacement was to be Dec. 2, but will probably not take place then because it is "elective surgery" and the crowded hospitals have no beds and lack enough staff to handle post-op care. I do not know when I will be able to schedule the surgery; and there are hundreds of people like me.
 

CHARLES,

Blessings on your forthcoming knee replacement; I hope they can get to it sooner rather than later. I had my second replacement ten days ago. I am still disabled and in pain but less so each day. The first was in April 2021 and a wonderful change in my life.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS