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[peter_speckhard]

I didn't say all money spent on sports is wasteful. But I believe the cult of professional (and some college) sports is wasteful and a bad influence on our society. Those of us who, a few of times a year, spend money on food, travel or theater, probably don't drop the cost of a season ticket to any pro team, or four or five games watched from the left-field bleachers.

How much does it cost to go to NYC to attend a Broadway play?  Plane fare?  Hotel costs?  Theater tickets?  Restaurant?
How much does it cost to go to Mexico for that beach vacation?  Flight, hotel, meals, incidentals?

If I fly to NYC for a football game or a Broadway play, doesn't the plane ticket cost the same?  Does the hotel have a lower rate for those attending musicals than for those going to ballgames?  When I place my order at the restaurant, do they give a different menu (and price list) for theater-goers vs. sports fans?  Hypocrisy, again.

a) I thought you stated you had sworn off the Packers/NFL last year due to Black Lives Matter concerns.  Happy to hear you're back.  What changed?
b) $150 million for Green Bay is a ton of American dollars.  We had relatives (three generation season ticket holders) at the game Sunday and I think they deposited a few ducats in the local coffers.  What I remember is paying a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church $20 for parking about three blocks from the game when I went there awhile back.  MISSION MONEY through PACKERPARKING!!  Or at least a fund for repaving the parking lot in order to charge more money in the future.
c) for general information - from 2019 so before COVID - sports travel $:  https://www.sportstravelmagazine.com/study-45-billion-spent-in-2019-on-sports-related-travel/.  I think it's nice that there's a magazine called Sports Travel.  I do that for Spring Training, so I'm a participant!

Dave Benke

What changed?  Well, the BLM stuff is a bit more tame and less in-your-face.  But, to be honest, I am weak.  I was raised a Packer fan.  It has always been part of my identity.  I must say, though, that I am more take-it-or-leave-it than I was a few years back so it wouldn't take much for me to switch it off again.

Green and Gold 'Til I'm Dead and Cold. You're not weak.  You're just learning to understand the reality behind the mantra.  I'm a fervent Mets fan in the Yankee Universe.  That's tough, to be sure.  But if I moved to AZ, I might watch the D'Backs with interest.  It could happen.  However, there is an unshakeable reality at the base of Packer Fandom.  This means that we receive, each and every year, a postcard from Green Bay indicating our place in the Season Ticket line.  In thirty years, we've moved from 35,000 away to 31,000 away.  Our reaction - there's hope!

Dave Benke

Ha! I got my first two kids on the list before they did the stadium expansion. They went from having many tens of thousands in front of them in line to now something like 12 thousandth in line, at least according to the latest post card from the Temple Mount.

Athletics require amazing natural ability but also discipline, drive, coachability, teamwork, and an incredible amount of hard work. I think non-athletic types think it is just a matter of dumb people who happen to have muscular bodies. At least, the amount of disdain they manage to exhibit toward people who have made it to the very top of a very competitive field would seem to indicate that mindset.

[Dave Benke]

Athletics require amazing natural ability but also discipline, drive, coachability, teamwork, and an incredible amount of hard work. I think non-athletic types think it is just a matter of dumb people who happen to have muscular bodies. At least, the amount of disdain they manage to exhibit toward people who have made it to the very top of a very competitive field would seem to indicate that mindset.

These are truths, and are in the overall scheme of today's existence warped almost beyond imagining by the combination of the celebrity cult/fetish and the dollars that go with that.  Not that 98% of anyone who's good at sports is getting those dollars.  But there are lots of jobs in Sports Industry, which is also a plus.  I played golf with a young couple the wife of which was affiliated with the largest sports complex in the world (her version) somewhere in Minnesota.   And yet she was vaping during the entire round.  Must have been an office worker.  But gainfully employed in sports management.

Now - let's take classical musicians and their pay on let's say the symphony orchestra team.  That's one thing in NYC - the competition is I would say far fiercer for any position in the orchestra than the NFL; but the pay is nice, and the living conditions, somewhere on the upper West Side, really nice.  And the career has a longer path than an NFL running back (what - 4 years?).  However,  the compensation pales in comparison to the top athletes, even though New York Symphony is at or near the top of the heap.

So - it does seem the games department of entertainment have done better than the ballerinas, actors and musicians, by and large.  Probably the comparisons aren't totally apt.  Because the oboist is not running into the string section trying to sack the first chair in violin.  At least not that often.  And the orchestra is held to a "completion percentage" of 99% plus in performance, while the QB who hits at 65% is an all-star.

Dave Benke

[peter_speckhard]

But that is because orchestra has a limited audience. Some movie actors become gajillionaires, but most actors do not. Stephen King has made millions writing horror novels while most writers need a day job to pay the bills.

The nature of direct competition heightens the gap between the best and the pretty good. If the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony Orchestra both have the best violinist in the world or the tenth best violinist in the world, nobody but super-duper music insiders even notices. Every concert does not get reduced to a W or an L. In sports, you either have to be truly elite, meaning good enough that you can hang in with the best, in which case your services are incredibly valuable, or your services aren’t worth anything. A D1 prospect who gets drafted but can never quite make the final cut has football skills that are very slightly more valuable than mine. That isn’t true of actors, artists, authors, and musicians. In those fields, there is a more stable relationship between level of talent and value of that talent. In direct competitions, though, there is only correlation at the top. Pretty good counts for a as almost nothing, but among the best counts for a huge amount.

[Rob Morris]

The oboist is not running into the string section trying to sack the first chair in violin...

On the other hand, this would make for an extremely entertaining event. Maybe a fundraiser for NYC Metro area Lutheran schools?

[James S. Rustad]

Pastor Bohler:
To your first question: yes.  Just think of the jobs dependent upon them.  The other night I was watching a replay of a Packer game from last year, when there were no fans allowed in the stands.  The announcer said the Green Bay Chamber of Commerce estimated the city lost $150 million dollars in revenue (hotels, restaurants, bars, etc.) because of the lack of fan attendance.  That is a lot for any city, but for a city of about 100,000 that is HUGE.
Me:
If the cult of sports including professional football were not present, Imagine what other possibly good things all that money might do.

Pastor Bohler
We have heard your squealing about how much you missed your preferred forms of entertainment (jet-setting to foreign countries on vacation, attending Broadway plays, eating at luxury restaurants, etc.).  But, again, I guess that is different. Because it is you and what you like.
Me:
Travel helps the economy of our country and other countries in a good way. The theater industry is nowhere near as massive as is the cult of professional sports. Ditto for “high end” restaurants. Nothing at all like the cult of professional sports, which dribbles down, and causes colleges to unnecessarily spend millions of dollars on sports.

Translation:  What I like is good for people, the country, and the world.  Everything else is just a waste.

[Charles Austin]

Not everything else.

[Dave Benke]

But that is because orchestra has a limited audience. Some movie actors become gajillionaires, but most actors do not. Stephen King has made millions writing horror novels while most writers need a day job to pay the bills.

The nature of direct competition heightens the gap between the best and the pretty good. If the New York Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony Orchestra both have the best violinist in the world or the tenth best violinist in the world, nobody but super-duper music insiders even notices. Every concert does not get reduced to a W or an L. In sports, you either have to be truly elite, meaning good enough that you can hang in with the best, in which case your services are incredibly valuable, or your services aren’t worth anything. A D1 prospect who gets drafted but can never quite make the final cut has football skills that are very slightly more valuable than mine. That isn’t true of actors, artists, authors, and musicians. In those fields, there is a more stable relationship between level of talent and value of that talent. In direct competitions, though, there is only correlation at the top. Pretty good counts for a as almost nothing, but among the best counts for a huge amount.

The response, attributed to an ancient Roman poet, is "panem et circenses."  Those concerned with excellence in service or policy, say, as top of the heap endeavors - and the arts are included as serious or comic look-ins to what's right and wrong in the public sphere - would call the games distractions or entertainment diversions - bread and the circus. With good eats and alcohol (tailgating, etc.).  And the diversions kind of "won" back then, which gave us Visi/Ostra Goths the opportunity to take that rascal Roman empire down.  Orchestral music and dance are in league with the less Dionysian and more Apollonian process, ergo "better for you."  "Listen to the Bach cello concerto, little one, you'll learn to love those sounds.  Just like eating your vegetables." 

Of course, we Lutherans offer that dichotomy, wearing our fourth century Byzantine court attire inside the building, chanting and singing four to 1200 year old songs in the classical way, while renting space in our parking lot for Green and Gold Tailgaters and praying out there against all our confessional beliefs for a Hail Mary from #12. 

Send in the clowns.  Don't bother - they're here.

Dave Benke

[peter_speckhard]

It is still the nature of competition that makes athlete salaries have an incredibly high top tier but a severe drop off for everyone else, while performance excellence that is not direct competition has more of a graded slope in which being excellent but not top tier still has value.

That and way more people enjoy watching sports. I would compare it more to cinema. Given the nature of a celebrity-driven culture, I think actors play an outsized role in many people’s minds, but I do not think Hollywood is a cult, even though some people might qualify as worshippers.

[Steven W Bohler]

I see now that Alan Lazard is also out for Thursday's game, on the COVID list.  Between COVID protocol and injuries, who is left for the Packers?

[peter_speckhard]

I see now that Alan Lazard is also out for Thursday's game, on the COVID list.  Between COVID protocol and injuries, who is left for the Packers?

They called, but we have Trunk and Treat in the parking lot here tomorrow evening, so I can't play.

[Dave Benke]

With regard to vaccine mandates, worth noting, as outgoing mayor (election of new mayor today) DiBlasio loves to tell the world, vaccine mandates work.  With 86% of NYC adults vaccinated and 92% of the city workforce vaccinated, our rates of infection and death are among the lowest anywhere for a tightly packed spot on the globe such as this.  What they did with the outliers was to put them on unpaid leave.  So basically they're coming around, with FDNY being last to the dance.  We had limited garbage pickup for four days, but the sanitation chief came on yesterday, apologized for the delays, said the sanitmen were back at full strength and vaccinated and he was thankful for their getting the message.   And Dan Nigro, FDNY commissioner, whom we honored at our Witness in the Public Square luncheon (Atlantic District) a couple of weeks ago, strongly supported the need for the firemen to get vaccinated, and has suspended one group who made a spectacle of themselves by taking a truck in uniform to threaten a state senator (which seemed weird anyway - what does a state senator have to do with their oversight?  nothing) at his office. 

All in all, slowly but now more surely, we are getting back to it in NYC.

Dave Benke

[peter_speckhard]

I don’t think anyone seriously doubts that mandates and coercion work. That’s only the true metric if efficiency is the only goal of government.

I have no idea what percentage of my town, county, or state is vaccinated. It makes no difference to me. I know the vaccine is available to everyone; that’s what counts. Good government in cooperation with private enterprise developed the vaccine and made it available, and continued to monitor and adjust. That’s as far as good government goes.

[Steven W Bohler]

With regard to vaccine mandates, worth noting, as outgoing mayor (election of new mayor today) DiBlasio loves to tell the world, vaccine mandates work.  With 86% of NYC adults vaccinated and 92% of the city workforce vaccinated, our rates of infection and death are among the lowest anywhere for a tightly packed spot on the globe such as this.  What they did with the outliers was to put them on unpaid leave.  So basically they're coming around, with FDNY being last to the dance.  We had limited garbage pickup for four days, but the sanitation chief came on yesterday, apologized for the delays, said the sanitmen were back at full strength and vaccinated and he was thankful for their getting the message.   And Dan Nigro, FDNY commissioner, whom we honored at our Witness in the Public Square luncheon (Atlantic District) a couple of weeks ago, strongly supported the need for the firemen to get vaccinated, and has suspended one group who made a spectacle of themselves by taking a truck in uniform to threaten a state senator (which seemed weird anyway - what does a state senator have to do with their oversight?  nothing) at his office. 

All in all, slowly but now more surely, we are getting back to it in NYC.

Dave Benke

According to the state of Minnesota, my county (Polk County) has rates of 50% (one dose) and 45% ("fully" vaccinated -- not sure if that means two doses or also the additional boosters).  I believe our rates of infection and death are less than NYC.  We do not have a mandate.

[Dave Benke]

With regard to vaccine mandates, worth noting, as outgoing mayor (election of new mayor today) DiBlasio loves to tell the world, vaccine mandates work.  With 86% of NYC adults vaccinated and 92% of the city workforce vaccinated, our rates of infection and death are among the lowest anywhere for a tightly packed spot on the globe such as this.  What they did with the outliers was to put them on unpaid leave.  So basically they're coming around, with FDNY being last to the dance.  We had limited garbage pickup for four days, but the sanitation chief came on yesterday, apologized for the delays, said the sanitmen were back at full strength and vaccinated and he was thankful for their getting the message.   And Dan Nigro, FDNY commissioner, whom we honored at our Witness in the Public Square luncheon (Atlantic District) a couple of weeks ago, strongly supported the need for the firemen to get vaccinated, and has suspended one group who made a spectacle of themselves by taking a truck in uniform to threaten a state senator (which seemed weird anyway - what does a state senator have to do with their oversight?  nothing) at his office. 

All in all, slowly but now more surely, we are getting back to it in NYC.

Dave Benke

According to the state of Minnesota, my county (Polk County) has rates of 50% (one does) and 45% ("fully" vaccinated -- not sure if that means two doses or also the additional boosters).  I believe our rates of infection and death are less than NYC.  We do not have a mandate.

Just spitballing a guess on this, SW, but your comparison might have at least a little bit to do with population density.  Polk County comes in at 16 people per square mile, and NYC five boroughs  is 27,016.  Where you're from, the eschatological vision of Micah (4:4) is approximately true - every man sitting under his own vine and fig tree, and if my math is correct, every person has on average 40 acres in which to sit.  Here we had some folks at our community garden who brought their pots of veggy plants from their apartment windows and replanted them on their 6' x 20' plot, which is a tad less than 40 acres.

That being said, you should be very happy you did not go through what we've been through in NY in terms of sickness and death from COVID.  You've been blessed.  And we all have been blessed with vaccines that work. My booster is due next week.


Dave Benke

[Steven W Bohler]

With regard to vaccine mandates, worth noting, as outgoing mayor (election of new mayor today) DiBlasio loves to tell the world, vaccine mandates work.  With 86% of NYC adults vaccinated and 92% of the city workforce vaccinated, our rates of infection and death are among the lowest anywhere for a tightly packed spot on the globe such as this.  What they did with the outliers was to put them on unpaid leave.  So basically they're coming around, with FDNY being last to the dance.  We had limited garbage pickup for four days, but the sanitation chief came on yesterday, apologized for the delays, said the sanitmen were back at full strength and vaccinated and he was thankful for their getting the message.   And Dan Nigro, FDNY commissioner, whom we honored at our Witness in the Public Square luncheon (Atlantic District) a couple of weeks ago, strongly supported the need for the firemen to get vaccinated, and has suspended one group who made a spectacle of themselves by taking a truck in uniform to threaten a state senator (which seemed weird anyway - what does a state senator have to do with their oversight?  nothing) at his office. 

All in all, slowly but now more surely, we are getting back to it in NYC.

Dave Benke

According to the state of Minnesota, my county (Polk County) has rates of 50% (one does) and 45% ("fully" vaccinated -- not sure if that means two doses or also the additional boosters).  I believe our rates of infection and death are less than NYC.  We do not have a mandate.

Just spitballing a guess on this, SW, but your comparison might have at least a little bit to do with population density.  Polk County comes in at 16 people per square mile, and NYC five boroughs  is 27,016.  Where you're from, the eschatological vision of Micah (4:4) is approximately true - every man sitting under his own vine and fig tree, and if my math is correct, every person has on average 40 acres in which to sit.  Here we had some folks at our community garden who brought their pots of veggy plants from their apartment windows and replanted them on their 6' x 20' plot, which is a tad less than 40 acres.

That being said, you should be very happy you did not go through what we've been through in NY in terms of sickness and death from COVID.  You've been blessed.  And we all have been blessed with vaccines that work. My booster is due next week.


Dave Benke

Ah, but you have just made my point: what may be good, helpful, even necessary in places like NYC (or Minneapolis/St. Paul) is NOT necessarily good, helpful, or necessary for places like Polk County.  So, why should all places be subject to mandates (or some of the other things that perhaps are beneficial for major metro areas)?  We have governors and presidents trying to make a "one-size-fits-all" solution when such solutions are neither good nor necessary for many places.