Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 584749 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5280 on: October 22, 2021, 12:00:38 PM »
I just found out my nephew tested positive. When I got the news my first impulse was not to worry about his health but to wonder what he’ll do about work in quarantine. When you hear that someone who is young and healthy tested positive, it isn’t like hearing they were in a car crash and you right away just want to know they’re okay. It is more like hearing they failed their driver’s test and now have to wait to take it again. Oh shoot. Too bad. Annoying. Now, obviously my nephew could turn out to be one of the incredibly rare exceptions and have a serious case. But that would be a separate piece of information later on calling for a different reaction. The normal, rational reaction to hearing a young healthy person tested positive is, “Bummer. Enjoy quarantine.” The effort to call that sane reaction heartless and to get everyone more panicked about it than the fact warrants is part of the problem.

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5281 on: October 22, 2021, 12:42:37 PM »

I muse:
Encouraging and following prevention mandates, such as masks, the necessary shutdowns, etc.


When my own doctor mandates that I take a specific medication, or observe a particular therapeutic protocol, I do it.  Immediately.

When the government (including government doctors) mandates that I take a specific medication, or observe a particular therapeutic protocol, it is time to reflect, gather information, analyze, calculate over all the available variables, pray, and make a decision; understanding that the decision may need to be adjusted as new information or new variables emerge over time.


Many of us are of a vintage to have seen previous epidemics come and go, and to have seen that they were frequently accompanied by epidemics of fear which proved more destructive and disruptive than the disease itself.

Many of us are also of a vintage to have seen the end-game of Vietnam, the Watergate trials, and Three Mile Island and learned that the Government can and does lie.

Unquestioning obedience is not healthy for our republic.   

Skepticism especially in the face of constantly changing, conflicting, and occasionally contradictory guidance does not mean that one is failing to "take COVID seriously".
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5282 on: October 22, 2021, 01:17:09 PM »
There is a time, believe I, when being nice, being "understanding" or accepting and trying - with sweetness and cooing - to deliver an important truth to people who either resist it or don't want to hear it, one must abandon sweetness and cooing and say: "Hey! Listen up! This is the deal! Now get your butt in gear and do what you are supposed to do. It's damned important."

What's with this continued cursing, Charles? I've noticed that you and Dick seem to think it's an appropriate form of emphasis. Is this something that, upon retirement from the ministry, becomes appropriate?


What's wrong with the word, "damn"? A number of Greek words in the NT carry the same meaning: to call on God to curse; or to be under God's curse.


ἀνάθεμα,
ἀναθεματίζω;
κατάθεμα
καταθεματίζω
κατάρα
καταράομαι


Paul frequently called on God to curse others Ro 9:3; 1 Cor 12:3; 16:22; Gal 1:8, 9; 3:10, 13
Peter cursed himself Mk 14:71; Mt 26:74
God cursed the goats Mt 25:41; Jesus cursed a fig tree Mk 11:21


However, there are commands that we should not curse Ja 3:9-10; Ro 12:14.


I wrote a paper in seminary where I considered that the "anathemas" in scriptures and Church Fathers was essentially calling on God to damn those people.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5283 on: October 22, 2021, 01:21:43 PM »
The disagreement is about what works, what shut downs are necessary, what level of risk is tolerable, and whether vaccines should be mandated. It isn’t so much a matter of what is hard or who takes disease seriously. We know as a piece of data, not an opinion, that many of the shut downs were not only unnecessary but continued to be enforced for ulterior motives (bargaining chip for teachers unions in Chicago, for example) despite doing great harm. Being opposed to that is not a refusal to take disease seriously. We know that masks in schools do no good. We know that because we have data from countries that don’t make kids mask up in school. So being opposed to masks in schools is not anti-science or refusing to take disease seriously, it is pro-science and taking education seriously. Opposing mandates is simply a philosophical opposition to statism.

Most of these disagreements are not about whether contagious diseases are bad but about whether they are the only bad thing against which no other considerations come into play.


Just as there is uncertainty about the effectiveness of some of the mandates; there is just as much uncertainty about the "great harm" that ignoring them might cause. I seriously doubt that not wearing masks is the only variable in those other countries. There are likely other factors that play into the lack of infections besides the masks.


The analogy is made that we are at war with this virus. We should every weapon at our disposal, even if their effectiveness is low. In most cases, it is better than doing nothing.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5284 on: October 22, 2021, 01:26:39 PM »
The disagreement is about what works, what shut downs are necessary, what level of risk is tolerable, and whether vaccines should be mandated. It isn’t so much a matter of what is hard or who takes disease seriously. We know as a piece of data, not an opinion, that many of the shut downs were not only unnecessary but continued to be enforced for ulterior motives (bargaining chip for teachers unions in Chicago, for example) despite doing great harm. Being opposed to that is not a refusal to take disease seriously. We know that masks in schools do no good. We know that because we have data from countries that don’t make kids mask up in school. So being opposed to masks in schools is not anti-science or refusing to take disease seriously, it is pro-science and taking education seriously. Opposing mandates is simply a philosophical opposition to statism.

Most of these disagreements are not about whether contagious diseases are bad but about whether they are the only bad thing against which no other considerations come into play.

I feel like this has been said over and over again, at least 200+ pages ago.

Yet it still seems to be missing those who need to hear it.  We can only speculate as to why that is.


Some of us believe that an abundance of prevention (even if unnecessary) is better than under prevention. I always wear a seat belt. My car has airbags. So far, I've never needed them to protect me in an accident; so should I get rid of them because, so far, they have been useless to me? No! I don't know what may happen in the future. No one knows (even those who are vaccinated) if they may infected with COVID in the future. No one who is infected knows if they will be sick enough to be hospitalized, or possibly die. Yes, the odds of hospitalization and death are small; but so are the odds of being in a car accident; but we are still mandated to take the safety measures in case there is an accident.

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5285 on: October 22, 2021, 01:29:18 PM »
I just found out my nephew tested positive. When I got the news my first impulse was not to worry about his health but to wonder what he’ll do about work in quarantine. When you hear that someone who is young and healthy tested positive, it isn’t like hearing they were in a car crash and you right away just want to know they’re okay. It is more like hearing they failed their driver’s test and now have to wait to take it again. Oh shoot. Too bad. Annoying. Now, obviously my nephew could turn out to be one of the incredibly rare exceptions and have a serious case. But that would be a separate piece of information later on calling for a different reaction. The normal, rational reaction to hearing a young healthy person tested positive is, “Bummer. Enjoy quarantine.” The effort to call that sane reaction heartless and to get everyone more panicked about it than the fact warrants is part of the problem.


Why bother with the quarantine if the disease is mostly harmless? Why shouldn't he just go on as normal, and if he infects a few other people, they are likely to survive. Why draw a line at required quarantine and not required masks or vaccinations?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5286 on: October 22, 2021, 01:32:53 PM »

I muse:
Encouraging and following prevention mandates, such as masks, the necessary shutdowns, etc.


When my own doctor mandates that I take a specific medication, or observe a particular therapeutic protocol, I do it.  Immediately.

When the government (including government doctors) mandates that I take a specific medication, or observe a particular therapeutic protocol, it is time to reflect, gather information, analyze, calculate over all the available variables, pray, and make a decision; understanding that the decision may need to be adjusted as new information or new variables emerge over time.


Many of us are of a vintage to have seen previous epidemics come and go, and to have seen that they were frequently accompanied by epidemics of fear which proved more destructive and disruptive than the disease itself.

Many of us are also of a vintage to have seen the end-game of Vietnam, the Watergate trials, and Three Mile Island and learned that the Government can and does lie.

Unquestioning obedience is not healthy for our republic.   

Skepticism especially in the face of constantly changing, conflicting, and occasionally contradictory guidance does not mean that one is failing to "take COVID seriously".


I am certain that the skepticism of some is a clear indication that they don't know how science works. What is "contradictory guidance" for some, is an indication that the science keeps learning and revising their guidance based on the increased knowledge they have gained. Science is quite willing to admit, "We don't know," until they have received enough data to make a determination, e.g., should we have a booster or not? Can we mix vaccines? They now believe that they have enough information to make a judgment on such questions.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5287 on: October 22, 2021, 01:58:54 PM »
There are a number of things about the Coronavirus narrative that make little sense to me.


There has been the oft repeated sentiment that in the war on the virus every weapon should be used even if it may not be very effective because doing something is better than doing nothing. Over doing protective measures is better than doing nothing. The problem with that is that the base hidden assumption behind that sentiment is that the measures being advocated are themselves harmless so doing them, even if they turn out to be of little benefit is still better than not doing them. But some of the preventative measures that have been prescribed are themselves far from harmless. Isolating people, closing many businesses and sectors of the economy, even masking, have been far from harmless. Doing them, especially in excess may well have been worse than doing nothing. Yet we are told that we are to blindly follow the prescriptions laid down by the government and never, ever question its wisdom or whether following those prescriptions did more good than harm. The alternative is to kill grandma.


The narrative about the vaccines has been that resistance to vaccines and vaccine mandates rose from anti-scientific conspiracy junkies and since everybody knows that Republicans in general and Trump followers specifically are characterized by being anti-science and followers of loony conspiracy theories, it is quintessentially a Republican thing and another indication that the greatest threat to America is the Republican party.


But is that narrative itself a loony conspiracy theory? At the least, the reality is more complex than such a simple explanation suggests. The vaccines that are now so highly regarded and mandated were themselves developed under a very controversial program initiated and driven by Pres. Trump. It was controversial because the Democrats, who had all the science on their side, declared that it was a futile effort that could never work in the time frame Trump suggested (probably would take at least a decade for a useable vaccine would be ready) and even if he came up with something, they would never take a Trump vaccine.


If the science is so definite and proven, why has a sizeable protion of the health worker community refused to be vaccinated, even at the threat of losing their jobs? Are they all anti-science Trumpites? There has been an even larger percentage of the minority community refusing the vaccines. Are they all Trump followers?


But we are still told that those who resist the jab are stupid fools who d--n well should do what they are d--n well told.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5288 on: October 22, 2021, 04:05:16 PM »
There are a number of things about the Coronavirus narrative that make little sense to me.


There has been the oft repeated sentiment that in the war on the virus every weapon should be used even if it may not be very effective because doing something is better than doing nothing. Over doing protective measures is better than doing nothing. The problem with that is that the base hidden assumption behind that sentiment is that the measures being advocated are themselves harmless so doing them, even if they turn out to be of little benefit is still better than not doing them. But some of the preventative measures that have been prescribed are themselves far from harmless. Isolating people, closing many businesses and sectors of the economy, even masking, have been far from harmless. Doing them, especially in excess may well have been worse than doing nothing. Yet we are told that we are to blindly follow the prescriptions laid down by the government and never, ever question its wisdom or whether following those prescriptions did more good than harm. The alternative is to kill grandma.


The narrative about the vaccines has been that resistance to vaccines and vaccine mandates rose from anti-scientific conspiracy junkies and since everybody knows that Republicans in general and Trump followers specifically are characterized by being anti-science and followers of loony conspiracy theories, it is quintessentially a Republican thing and another indication that the greatest threat to America is the Republican party.


But is that narrative itself a loony conspiracy theory? At the least, the reality is more complex than such a simple explanation suggests. The vaccines that are now so highly regarded and mandated were themselves developed under a very controversial program initiated and driven by Pres. Trump. It was controversial because the Democrats, who had all the science on their side, declared that it was a futile effort that could never work in the time frame Trump suggested (probably would take at least a decade for a useable vaccine would be ready) and even if he came up with something, they would never take a Trump vaccine.


If the science is so definite and proven, why has a sizeable protion of the health worker community refused to be vaccinated, even at the threat of losing their jobs? Are they all anti-science Trumpites? There has been an even larger percentage of the minority community refusing the vaccines. Are they all Trump followers?


But we are still told that those who resist the jab are stupid fools who d--n well should do what they are d--n well told.


I don't recall anyone stating that the anti-virus measures are harmless. Usually, it's benefits vs. risks.


Every group who has refused to be vaccinated are minorities. A majority of health workers have been vaccinated. They tend not to make the news. The few who refuse are featured on news casts. Sort of like someone who refuses to fly in an airplane because of all the crashes. Yet, air travel is safer per mile than driving. We just don't hear about all the millions of people who fly safely.

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5289 on: October 22, 2021, 08:33:05 PM »
So Rand Paul was right about gain-of-function research?

In a testy exchange with Senator Rand Paul last July, Dr. Fauci asserted flatly, "The NIH [National Institute of Health] has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology."

That wasn't true. The NIH has conceded that EcoHealth and the Wuhan Institute of Virology did in fact conduct controversial gain-of-function experiments. Fauci, perhaps unknowingly, misled Congress in denying that.

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) has given U.S. research group EcoHealth Alliance (EHA) until Monday to release all of its NIH-funded coronavirus research data, after it failed to reveal that an engineered coronavirus was found to be more infectious in mice than other forms. Republicans have subsequently accused the group of lying to NIH.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 10:20:56 PM by James S. Rustad »

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5290 on: October 22, 2021, 08:55:28 PM »
There are a number of things about the Coronavirus narrative that make little sense to me.

There has been the oft repeated sentiment that in the war on the virus every weapon should be used even if it may not be very effective because doing something is better than doing nothing. Over doing protective measures is better than doing nothing. The problem with that is that the base hidden assumption behind that sentiment is that the measures being advocated are themselves harmless so doing them, even if they turn out to be of little benefit is still better than not doing them. But some of the preventative measures that have been prescribed are themselves far from harmless. Isolating people, closing many businesses and sectors of the economy, even masking, have been far from harmless. Doing them, especially in excess may well have been worse than doing nothing. Yet we are told that we are to blindly follow the prescriptions laid down by the government and never, ever question its wisdom or whether following those prescriptions did more good than harm. The alternative is to kill grandma.


The narrative about the vaccines has been that resistance to vaccines and vaccine mandates rose from anti-scientific conspiracy junkies and since everybody knows that Republicans in general and Trump followers specifically are characterized by being anti-science and followers of loony conspiracy theories, it is quintessentially a Republican thing and another indication that the greatest threat to America is the Republican party.


But is that narrative itself a loony conspiracy theory? At the least, the reality is more complex than such a simple explanation suggests. The vaccines that are now so highly regarded and mandated were themselves developed under a very controversial program initiated and driven by Pres. Trump. It was controversial because the Democrats, who had all the science on their side, declared that it was a futile effort that could never work in the time frame Trump suggested (probably would take at least a decade for a useable vaccine would be ready) and even if he came up with something, they would never take a Trump vaccine.


If the science is so definite and proven, why has a sizeable protion of the health worker community refused to be vaccinated, even at the threat of losing their jobs? Are they all anti-science Trumpites? There has been an even larger percentage of the minority community refusing the vaccines. Are they all Trump followers?


But we are still told that those who resist the jab are stupid fools who d--n well should do what they are d--n well told.

I don't recall anyone stating that the anti-virus measures are harmless. Usually, it's benefits vs. risks.
Usually the cost side is ignored or those making the cost/benefit argument are ridiculed.  Remember, it's for the children.

Every group who has refused to be vaccinated are minorities. A majority of health workers have been vaccinated. They tend not to make the news. The few who refuse are featured on news casts. Sort of like someone who refuses to fly in an airplane because of all the crashes. Yet, air travel is safer per mile than driving. We just don't hear about all the millions of people who fly safely.

"The few who refuse..."?  It varies.  For some medical facilities "few" is accurate.  For others it is not - the LA Times reports on one medical facility where the majority are unvaccinated.  Should such facilities terminate over half of there employees?  What would that do to healthcare in that facility?

In Tulare County, the Kaweah Health Medical Center in Visalia is granting religious exemptions to every employee who requests one, fearing that a stricter approach could spur a massive staffing shortage.

“We cannot afford to lose a single nurse,” said Chief Executive Gary Herbst. The vaccination rate in Tulare is 43.3%, compared with 60% statewide, and the hospital is seeing a surge of COVID-19 patients, he said. The hospital is struggling with a high rate of turnover and exhaustion, and is relying on overtime from current staff and about 100 travel nurses to meet staffing demands.

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5291 on: October 24, 2021, 02:53:10 PM »
Hmmm...  Lying to Congress?

NIH ADMITS to funding gain-of-function research on bat coronaviruses at China's Wuhan lab despite Dr. Fauci repeatedly insisting to Congress that it did not happen
  • In a new letter, NIH's principal deputy director Lawrence A. Tabak says lab rats were infected with the modified bat virus in the Wuhan lab in China
  • While never using the term, Tabak essentially confirms that gain of function research, took place despite consistent denials from Dr. Fauci 
  • In May, Fauci testified that the NIH 'has not ever and does not now fund gain of function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology'
  • The letter shifts the blame to U.S non profit EcoHealth Alliance for not being transparent about the kind of research they were doing
  • Senator Rand Paul, who was widely mocked for promoting the lab leak theory,  tweeted the letter, writing: 'I told you so' doesn't even begin to cover it here'

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5292 on: October 25, 2021, 09:22:51 PM »
Here's some unwelcome COVID news:  Davante Adams is on the COVID reserve list and will most likely miss the Packer/Cardinal game Thursday night.  I believe the point spread will shift at least two more against the Pack with that news. 

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5293 on: October 25, 2021, 09:32:18 PM »
Here's some unwelcome COVID news:  Davante Adams is on the COVID reserve list and will most likely miss the Packer/Cardinal game Thursday night.  I believe the point spread will shift at least two more against the Pack with that news. 

Dave Benke

Also their defensive co-ordinator, Joe Barry, has been placed on the COVID list.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5294 on: October 25, 2021, 11:02:59 PM »
On a more hopeful note, LeFleur is 6-0 in games without Adams, and Rodgers actually has a slightly better QBR in those six games than in games with Adams. But the Packers will be without four all-pro starters, and could be without four other starters. Huge bummer.