Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 478745 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5235 on: October 11, 2021, 07:08:35 PM »
You're being myopic.  You have to appreciate context and not focus solely on the words "you fool."

Whether Pastor Austin's words fit here is the ground for discussion.  I'm inclined to apply charity and suggest they do not (I do think they reveal pride and vainglory, but not necessarily anger).  But pretending it is the mere utterance of the word "fool" that anyone is talking about is simply missing the point.


I think that is what they were talking about by quoting it in reference to Charles's use of the word "fool."


The following is what I have written on this section of the Sermon on the Mount.


Righteousness under the law meant only outward acts. Murder was illegally killing another person. Adultery was having sex with another man’s wife or betrothed. If someone did something wrong to you, it was OK to do the same thing back to them – to get even.
 
The higher righteousness of Jesus centers on relationships – which not only involve outward acts, but also inner attitudes. When there is inner anger at another person even if there are no outward actions, the relationship is damaged. When there is inner lust in the heart even if there are no outward actions, the relationship is cheapened. When there are acts of revenge or even inward feelings of wanting to get even, nothing is done to help build or re-establish the relationship.
 
Unrighteousness is all those acts, words, thoughts, and feelings that cheapen and degrade the relationship between people. Righteousness is all those acts, words, thoughts and feelings that maintain, establish, or re-establish good relationships between people.


MURDER AND PEACEMAKING (5:21-26)
 
I have used this portion as part of the confirmation class on the Fifth Commandments. God gave this commandment to protect life. Anything that degrades that life is contrary to God’s will. Anger, name-calling, put downs are ways that we degrade or take away part of another person’s life. (Looking at another lustfully also degrades the other person.) In addition, such actions do not promote the right relationship that God desires between people.
 
The other two instances of “being angry” (ὀργίζομαι - orgizomai) in Matthew are in parables about God. In one case the anger is directed towards those who refuse the king’s gracious invitation and kill the king’s messengers (22:7). In the other case the anger is directed towards a slave who had been forgiven a huge debt by the king, but is unwilling to forgive a fellow slave’s small debt (18:34). Especially from this second parable, it would seem that the way we treat others is the way God will treat us – either with anger or with mercy. If we seek to be reconciled with those who have wronged us (note: it is not with those we have wronged!), it is about not seeking revenge for those who have wronged us. We seek to make friends with our opponents. Perhaps that indicates the way God will treat us who have wronged God and who are often God’s opponents.
 
I’ve often told youth (and it applies to adults, too,) when you get angry at someone, you are letting the other person control your emotions. You’ve turned your life over to them.
 
As I’ve mentioned in earlier notes, “kingdom of heaven” can be understood as “heaven rules” or “God rules.” If God is ruling our lives, we shouldn’t let other people control our feelings or our actions. Anger is a response to other people. It is one response. Another response is to seek peace with those who have wronged us. As I suggested above, the way we treat others is a witness to the God who has claimed our lives. The understanding others will have about our God will come through our attitude, words, and actions.
 
In v. 25 the NRSV and ESV begins: “Come to terms quickly with your accuser.” More literally, it begins with the imperative: “Be” or “Become.” Then comes the participle of εὐνοέω (eunoeō). This is a compound word: a prefix meaning “well” or “good” (like in “good news”) and the verb for “to think”. Thus, it refers to thinking well of the other person. Jesus commands us to think positively about our accusers and their actions. The word for “accuser” is ἀντίδικος (antidikos), which can mean an “accuser” in a courtroom, or more generally, someone who is continually antagonistic against another.
 
A phenomenon I’ve seen with lawyers and even politicians is that their opponents in a case or on a bill do not have to become their enemies. They can be friends, even while arguing opposite sides of an issue. Opponents on a football field can be friends off the field. They don’t have to be enemies. Who knows, next season they could be on the same team.
 
Those who are involved in formal debate have to be able to argue both sides of the issue. In competition, they don’t know which side they have to present. Too often in our (angry) “debates” we don’t accurately know the other position. We argue against what we think it is – and we’re often wrong.
 
In vv. 25-26, I think Jesus advises us to see our opponents – even in a law case – as friends, rather than enemies; to think well of them rather than get angry. Making peace with them is more important than getting revenge. Martin Luther counsels us in part of his meaning to the 8th commandment: “We are to come to [our neighbors] defense, speak well of them, and interpret everything they do in the best possible light.” We are to seek to do that with opponents, too.
 
Eugene Boring (Matthew, New Interpreters Bible) notes that all six of the examples “deal with relations between human beings, not with religious rituals that express humanity’s relation to God.” (p. 189)
 
We can do little or nothing about our relationship with God – it is something God establishes with us through Jesus: I am your God; you are my people. However, we can, and we are called to do a lot of changing and growing in our relationship to other people. As people who are to be ruled by God, we seek peace with those who have wronged us, not anger or revenge or name calling.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5236 on: October 11, 2021, 07:09:54 PM »
Well, there's your Brian illogicAl misconversion for the day.   ::)


I'm glad that I don't disappoint you.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5237 on: October 12, 2021, 12:23:16 PM »
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/gwendolynsims/2021/10/12/hypocrisy-much-newsoms-daughter-isnt-vaccinated-but-your-kids-better-be-n1523217

Politicians tend to have some sort of explanation for their own personal choices and behavior. Why is fine as long as they're willing to accept other people's explanations for their choices. This is sort of like Mayor Lightfoot closing all the hair salons and then getting caught having her done. She didn't apologize, she said her appearance was very important to her and she is the face of the city, so it was justified.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5238 on: October 12, 2021, 02:32:34 PM »
Well, there's your Brian illogicAl misconversion for the day.   ::)

I'm glad that I don't disappoint you.

Brian,

I'd love to be "disappointed" by you actually looking at things in context (see Mr. Garner's comment), draw logical conclusions from others' responses, and knock it off with the "I'm only asking questions" facade. You ain't Socrates either.

I have yet to see it.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5239 on: October 12, 2021, 02:39:36 PM »
You're being myopic.  You have to appreciate context and not focus solely on the words "you fool."

Whether Pastor Austin's words fit here is the ground for discussion.  I'm inclined to apply charity and suggest they do not (I do think they reveal pride and vainglory, but not necessarily anger).  But pretending it is the mere utterance of the word "fool" that anyone is talking about is simply missing the point.
I think that is what they were talking about by quoting it in reference to Charles's use of the word "fool."

The following is what I have written on this section of the Sermon on the Mount.

Righteousness under the law meant only outward acts. Murder was illegally killing another person. Adultery was having sex with another man’s wife or betrothed. If someone did something wrong to you, it was OK to do the same thing back to them – to get even.
 
The higher righteousness of Jesus centers on relationships – which not only involve outward acts, but also inner attitudes. When there is inner anger at another person even if there are no outward actions, the relationship is damaged. When there is inner lust in the heart even if there are no outward actions, the relationship is cheapened. When there are acts of revenge or even inward feelings of wanting to get even, nothing is done to help build or re-establish the relationship.
 
Unrighteousness is all those acts, words, thoughts, and feelings that cheapen and degrade the relationship between people. Righteousness is all those acts, words, thoughts and feelings that maintain, establish, or re-establish good relationships between people.

MURDER AND PEACEMAKING (5:21-26)
 
I have used this portion as part of the confirmation class on the Fifth Commandments. God gave this commandment to protect life. Anything that degrades that life is contrary to God’s will. Anger, name-calling, put downs are ways that we degrade or take away part of another person’s life. (Looking at another lustfully also degrades the other person.) In addition, such actions do not promote the right relationship that God desires between people.
 
The other two instances of “being angry” (ὀργίζομαι - orgizomai) in Matthew are in parables about God. In one case the anger is directed towards those who refuse the king’s gracious invitation and kill the king’s messengers (22:7). In the other case the anger is directed towards a slave who had been forgiven a huge debt by the king, but is unwilling to forgive a fellow slave’s small debt (18:34). Especially from this second parable, it would seem that the way we treat others is the way God will treat us – either with anger or with mercy. If we seek to be reconciled with those who have wronged us (note: it is not with those we have wronged!), it is about not seeking revenge for those who have wronged us. We seek to make friends with our opponents. Perhaps that indicates the way God will treat us who have wronged God and who are often God’s opponents.
 
I’ve often told youth (and it applies to adults, too,) when you get angry at someone, you are letting the other person control your emotions. You’ve turned your life over to them.
 
As I’ve mentioned in earlier notes, “kingdom of heaven” can be understood as “heaven rules” or “God rules.” If God is ruling our lives, we shouldn’t let other people control our feelings or our actions. Anger is a response to other people. It is one response. Another response is to seek peace with those who have wronged us. As I suggested above, the way we treat others is a witness to the God who has claimed our lives. The understanding others will have about our God will come through our attitude, words, and actions.
 
In v. 25 the NRSV and ESV begins: “Come to terms quickly with your accuser.” More literally, it begins with the imperative: “Be” or “Become.” Then comes the participle of εὐνοέω (eunoeō). This is a compound word: a prefix meaning “well” or “good” (like in “good news”) and the verb for “to think”. Thus, it refers to thinking well of the other person. Jesus commands us to think positively about our accusers and their actions. The word for “accuser” is ἀντίδικος (antidikos), which can mean an “accuser” in a courtroom, or more generally, someone who is continually antagonistic against another.
 
A phenomenon I’ve seen with lawyers and even politicians is that their opponents in a case or on a bill do not have to become their enemies. They can be friends, even while arguing opposite sides of an issue. Opponents on a football field can be friends off the field. They don’t have to be enemies. Who knows, next season they could be on the same team.
 
Those who are involved in formal debate have to be able to argue both sides of the issue. In competition, they don’t know which side they have to present. Too often in our (angry) “debates” we don’t accurately know the other position. We argue against what we think it is – and we’re often wrong.
 
In vv. 25-26, I think Jesus advises us to see our opponents – even in a law case – as friends, rather than enemies; to think well of them rather than get angry. Making peace with them is more important than getting revenge. Martin Luther counsels us in part of his meaning to the 8th commandment: “We are to come to [our neighbors] defense, speak well of them, and interpret everything they do in the best possible light.” We are to seek to do that with opponents, too.
 
Eugene Boring (Matthew, New Interpreters Bible) notes that all six of the examples “deal with relations between human beings, not with religious rituals that express humanity’s relation to God.” (p. 189)
 
We can do little or nothing about our relationship with God – it is something God establishes with us through Jesus: I am your God; you are my people. However, we can, and we are called to do a lot of changing and growing in our relationship to other people. As people who are to be ruled by God, we seek peace with those who have wronged us, not anger or revenge or name calling.

At his best, Brian's posts are interesting, challenging, educational, and convincing.  At his worst, Brian is irritating without being the other four.  He's worth reading in case he's at his best.

There are others who rarely rise above just being irritating let alone hitting all four of the positives.  Some of them are worthy of ignoring.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5240 on: October 12, 2021, 06:47:51 PM »
Interesting interview with an Amish man about his theological objections to shut downs.

https://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=49432


peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5241 on: October 13, 2021, 08:54:45 AM »
A majority of American now agree that Dr. Fauci “has lost all credibility.” If you lend any credence to what he says, you are in a shrinking minority.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/washington-secrets/faucis-credibility-on-life-support

Coach-Rev

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5242 on: October 13, 2021, 10:04:44 AM »
A majority of American now agree that Dr. Fauci “has lost all credibility.” If you lend any credence to what he says, you are in a shrinking minority.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/washington-secrets/faucis-credibility-on-life-support

Here's a major reason why:  https://parler.com/feed/f2a2c5b9-f82b-47c5-95c8-a310cbeb9611
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

blog:  http://coach-rev.blogspot.com/
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5243 on: October 13, 2021, 12:16:34 PM »

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5244 on: October 13, 2021, 01:06:47 PM »
Brian looks like Socrates.

Peter (I look like The Cat in the Hat) Garrison
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5245 on: October 13, 2021, 02:10:49 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/13/new-york-city-vaccine-mandates-bronx-hesitant

This is from Dave's neck of the woods.

This quote from the article I linked above demonstrates the kind of talking past each other that afflicts communication when one side can't understand the other. The assumptions and outlook of the author leak over into the mere reporting of facts, which furthers a lack of trust. On the topic of why so many people in the Bronx don't trust the vaccine and/or the health care system, the author says:

This mistrust almost cost Emely Berrera, 23, her stepfather’s life. She works as a cashier at a hand car wash in the Tremont section of the West Bronx, and said her stepfather nearly stopped breathing last March. When the family called a taxi to get him to the hospital, the driver warned them, “Don’t go, because they’re gonna kill you in there.”


Now, the way that story is set up, you expect it to continue with a story of how they considered the cab driver's warning but ended up at the hospital anyway, where the doctor saved the man's life in the nick of time. The reader thinks that because the first sentence reads as a statement of known fact that the ensuing paragraphs explain. The mistrust of going to the hospital almost cost him his life. Instead, the actual story continues:
   
Berrera’s stepfather stayed home, where the family treated him with purple onion tea. Luckily he recovered.

Talk about an assumed conclusion. The actual story undercuts the setup of the story. Another way of telling this exact same story would be:

This mistrust probably saved Emely Berrera's step-father's life. She works as a cashier in the Bronx and said her stepfather nearly stopped breathing last March, and the family called a taxi to take him to the hospital. Luckily, the cab driver warned them not to take the man to the hospital because, he said, "They're gonna kill you in there." The family heeded the driver's warning and stayed home. They treated the patient with effective herbal remedies, and he recovered.

The people who distrust the hospital and believe in herbal remedies would read the real article and simply lose faith in the newspaper, too, since the article manifestly got the story wrong. My retelling (though I personally don't mistrust the hospital and don't put much stock in purple onion tea) would be far closer to how the people involved would retell the story themselves.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 02:13:50 PM by peter_speckhard »

pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5246 on: October 13, 2021, 02:24:43 PM »
We had a Covid-nervous friend visit Santa Barbara last week. “Santa Barbara was really dangerous with Covid. I didn’t see anyone wearing masks.“

Peter (Masks cause Covid?) Garrison
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5247 on: October 16, 2021, 08:37:05 PM »
A new antibody testing study examining samples originally collected through the National Institutes of Health’s All of Us Research Program found evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infections in five states earlier than had initially been reported. These findings were published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases. The results expand on findings from a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study that suggested SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, was present in the U.S. as far back as December 2019.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5248 on: October 18, 2021, 06:56:09 PM »
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #5249 on: October 19, 2021, 09:03:06 AM »
Facing reality:

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2021/10/let-life-resume-john-stossel/

Well stated.  It is something I have thought about from early on in the the pandemic. We do not live with zero risk.  We manage risk.  And then we get on with living.  Excellent article.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI