News:


Main Menu

Coronavirus news

Started by J. Eriksson, February 28, 2020, 09:18:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Charles Austin

Pastor Butler:
Many have gotten very ill and thousands have died due to COVID. But those thousands do not mitigate the fact that others have a milder version. Both are true.

Me:
"Many" equals millions. "Thousands" equals nearly three-quarters of a million.
Downplaying vaccines, masks, other attempts to stop the spread is obscene. Fewer people would've died if all these attempts to prevent the spread had been taken seriously and enforced many months ago.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

peter_speckhard

The whole point of my comment about our family's experience with Covid was to argue against the idea that this was a choice between liberty and death. It isn't. As I clearly said, it is a choice between slightly greater risk of death and slightly curtailed liberty. But many people are treating those who tolerate any increased risk of any kind as though they are handing out death sentences. The fact is, Covid got to most of my family. It was no big deal for us. I understand it is a big deal for others. But to pretend that everyone should live in terror of something as though it is a death sentence when it manifestly isn't is part of what is driving the hysteria. I think twenty years from now people will look back at the last 18 months as a time of overreaction, not underreaction.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

My niece, who is of child bearing age, has declined the vaccine because of uncertainty about how it might affect her future children. She served as a nurse throughout the pandemic but was let go from her employment because she would not get vaccinated. Her comment, "Last year I was a hero for serving. This year, I'm a villain." Last year they couldn't give enough hours to medical personnel and kept drumming them into service. This year the same personnel taking the same precautions that kept everything going for public health are threatened with unemployment.

Something somewhere is out of perspective when leaders turn so sharply.

Charles Austin

I think 20 years from now people will look back At the last 18 months and say "what was wrong with those people? Why didn't they take decisive actions sooner? And on a national level? And why was it so hard to get people to do such simple things to prevent the spread of the disease?"
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

Charles Austin

Pastor Engelbrecht, last year we did not have the vaccines. Your niece is not a villain if she chooses this action hoping to protect future children. But that act of hoped-for protection might mean she needs to seek other work.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
Your niece is not a villain if she chooses this action hoping to protect future children.

Just a...?   ::)

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 04:50:57 AM
I would say, "you're being a damn fool; get the shot."
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Jim Butler

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 11:20:21 AM
Pastor Butler:
Many have gotten very ill and thousands have died due to COVID. But those thousands do not mitigate the fact that others have a milder version. Both are true.

Me:
"Many" equals millions. "Thousands" equals nearly three-quarters of a million.
Downplaying vaccines, masks, other attempts to stop the spread is obscene. Fewer people would've died if all these attempts to prevent the spread had been taken seriously and enforced many months ago.

You didn't answer my question: Isn't Peter's experience valid? That's a yes or no question. Why are you avoiding it?

According to the CDC, since March, 2020, 44 million people in America have been infected. Of those 44 million, about 3 million were hospitalized and around 770,000 have died (about 2% of known cases). To give that some context, in 2020 there were 700,000 deaths from cancer, 600,000 from heart disease, and about 350,000 from COVID. (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234)

Of that 770,000, over 400,000 were aged 75 and over (https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku). Another 280,000 were ages 50-75. Around 98% of COVID deaths had at least one comorbidity.

In short, there is a lot more to the story than what you list above.

Now, if this is whole COVID thing is so upsetting to you, then why don't you actually do something useful? Instead of griping on this board, go out and tell unmasked people to start wearing them. Stand on a street corner and hector them. Go up to strangers in the grocery store and tell them to put on their mask.

As for vaccinations, I just looked up vaccination information on MN.gov. According to it, less than half of the black population ages 19-44 has been vaccinated and about only about 75% of the those ages 45-64. So why don't you go out and tell some unvaccinated black folks "you're being a damn fool; get the shot." And then tell them you refuse to apologize for calling them foolish.  (That is how you put it, right?) Or you can call up your local BLM chapter and do the same thing. Be sure to leave your name, address, and phone number in case they want to follow up. Your welcome for this helpful advice.
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

DeHall1

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
Pastor Engelbrecht, last year we did not have the vaccines. Your niece is not a villain if she chooses this action hoping to protect future children. But that act of hoped-for protection might mean she needs to seek other work.

COVID vaccines became available in December 2020 (thank you, "Operation Warp Speed" ).  I had both of mine (Pfizer) by the end of January 2021.   Pastor Engelbrecht's daughter has apparently survived as a nurse through 2021 until she was let go because she would not get vaccinated.

Just like New York healthcare workers, she didn't become a "villain" (or "damn fool") until the mandates went into effect.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
Pastor Engelbrecht, last year we did not have the vaccines. Your niece is not a villain if she chooses this action hoping to protect future children. But that act of hoped-for protection might mean she needs to seek other work.

Or, she might continue the same good work with the same precautions that worked for her and the hospital for more than a year. States other than New York are doing just that with the many young women seeking exemption from the vaccine mandate. (Ohio is granting exemptions.) These cautious and thoughtful nurses remain heroes in the eyes of many of us. Attempts to replace experienced nurses with less experienced guardsmen seems like poor planning for all concerned. Lord, have mercy.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on October 07, 2021, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
Pastor Engelbrecht, last year we did not have the vaccines. Your niece is not a villain if she chooses this action hoping to protect future children. But that act of hoped-for protection might mean she needs to seek other work.

Or, she might continue the same good work with the same precautions that worked for her and the hospital for more than a year. States other than New York are doing just that with the many young women seeking exemption from the vaccine mandate. (Ohio is granting exemptions.) These cautious and thoughtful nurses remain heroes in the eyes of many of us. Attempts to replace experienced nurses with less experienced guardsmen seems like poor planning for all concerned. Lord, have mercy.
Lately several governments have withdrawn approval for at least of the vaccines for younger people due to possible severe side effects related to heart health. These are relatively new vaccines. When we go on record saying that they are just obviously good and safe and there are no good reasons to refuse them, what do we do when it turns out ten years from now that there were terrible side effects? Probably claim that we were going by the best available information. But that will be a lie. We currently know that we do not know all the risks associated with getting vaccinated. That isn't an unknown bit of information. Nor is it unimportant. But some people are acting as though the unknown is known or that it is unimportant because they are acting in a state of fear and panic.

Charles Austin

#5185
Wow, so many words and emotions stirred by my modest (and ultimately insignificant) comments!

Peter writes:
We currently know that we do not know all the risks associated with getting vaccinated. That isn't an unknown bit of information. Nor is it unimportant. But some people are acting as though the unknown is known or that it is unimportant because they are acting in a state of fear and panic.
I comment:
We do not know full risks of anything, including going to church on Sunday. But Peter forgets the risk/benefit factor. Every time I am outdoors in lovely Minnesota, there is a risk that I could be trampled by a Moose. But the risk is small compared to the benefits. Every time I take the pills prescribed for my blood pressure or atrial fibrillation, there is a risk, but the risk is smaller than the risk of worse trouble if I don't take them.

Pastor Engelbrect writes:
Or, she (his nurse-niece) might continue the same good work with the same precautions that worked for her and the hospital for more than a year. States other than New York are doing just that with the many young women seeking exemption from the vaccine mandate. (Ohio is granting exemptions.) These cautious and thoughtful nurses remain heroes in the eyes of many of us. Attempts to replace experienced nurses with less experienced guardsmen seems like poor planning for all concerned.
I comment:
But she doesn't get to make that decision. Good work if other states are doing it. Your complaint is with the state, not with anything to do with the vaccines or medicine. Nurses were heroes before the pandemic.

Dehall:
Pastor Engelbrecht's daughter has apparently survived as a nurse through 2021 until she was let go because she would not get vaccinated.  Just like New York healthcare workers, she didn't become a "villain" (or "damn fool") until the mandates went into effect.
Me:
See above. And if folks here and their kin think I am panicky and afraid, I guess I can think that their relatives are damn fools.

Pastor Butler:
Now, if this is whole COVID thing is so upsetting to you, then why don't you actually do something useful? Instead of griping on this board, go out and tell unmasked people to start wearing them. Stand on a street corner and hector them. Go up to strangers in the grocery store and tell them to put on their mask.
Me:
Not my particular style, but I have seen people tell others to put on a mask; and we have seen the screaming meemies in demonstrations mocking masks.

Pastor Butler:
So why don't you go out and tell some unvaccinated black folks "you're being a damn fool; get the shot." And then tell them you refuse to apologize for calling them foolish.  (That is how you put it, right?) Or you can call up your local BLM chapter and do the same thing. Be sure to leave your name, address, and phone number in case they want to follow up.
Me:
My, my! The systemic racism that lurks behind those words! You say I should hassle strangers in the grocery store, but suggest that if I do the same thing to African-Americans, I'm putting myself and my house in danger. Poop on that. I'm more worried about nuts who might be carrying a weapon in the supermarket.

To Pastor Kirchner:
Can I not think that someone is choosing a foolish way of trying to protect a "future child"? I think some people are choosing foolish ways to protect their house and land. ("Because of the cost of bullets," says a sign (I hope satirically), "I will no longer fire a warning short."

To Peter et al.
I am not living in fear, terror or panic. At least I don't think I'm doing that with regard to my personal sack of blood and bones. I do worry about the social impact of the anti-vaxxers, the science-deniers, the gun nuts, certain (not all) "pro-life" activists, members of the Trump cult, Tik Tok and "conservatives" who champion gas-guzzling cars, coal mining, and Mitch McConnell's robotic, lying and emotionless words.
   But not all the time. Made fine tomato-basil soup from some of my harvest today. Heard some good Oktoberfest music on Amazon, got a couple of fun movies to see and people to see them with. I'll get ten days in New Jersey soon. I'll be preaching and presiding on two future Sundays. And when I visit our daughter and son-in-law and grandchildren 15 minutes from where we live, there is a cat to pet and cookies to eat.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on October 07, 2021, 01:40:59 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 01:27:27 PM
Your niece is not a villain if she chooses this action hoping to protect future children.

Just a...?   ::)

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 04:50:57 AM
I would say, "you're being a damn fool; get the shot."

Yup. Confirmed, doubling down on his boorish comment.

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 07, 2021, 05:03:29 PM
...I guess I can think that their relatives are damn fools.

Sometimes, Charles, I think you actually pride yourself at your rudeness.   ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

peter_speckhard

I'm not forgetting the risk/benefit analysis. I'm insisting that people prefer to make those calculations for themselves. Some people might fear getting trampled by a moose more than you do, or not see the benefits of going out into the woods the way you do. So you should decide for yourself whether to venture into the lovely/scary woods, and let other people decide for themselves.

Charles Austin

And Peter forgets again that we live in a communal world, where our decisions affect not only us but the people around us. And sometime we must modify what we would like to do, the actions we would like to take for the sake of the larger community.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

Charles writes:
I comment:
But she doesn't get to make that decision. Good work if other states are doing it. Your complaint is with the state, not with anything to do with the vaccines or medicine. Nurses were heroes before the pandemic.


Charles,

Here is a good example of public policy in New York leading the wrong direction:

https://apnews.com/article/andrew-cuomo-business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-9f5c0b3d55cdb7cd5c3101f38edb673e

Punishing nurses who have served faithfully through the worst of the pandemic is another example of poor policy. It is no wonder that people are leaving states like New York. I think they're down more than a million residents, an unintended consequence of such policies.

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk