Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 338212 times)

Rob Morris

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3705 on: May 05, 2021, 12:30:31 PM »
My conclusion: kids that are gifted, self-motivated, and privileged with both finances and parental attention have done well. Any child that can't check all of those boxes?  Oof. And as the parent of a child with diagnosed special needs, don't even get me rolling on how well distance learning worked for kids with IEPs.

My son has a learning disability and is studying to be an industrial electrician.  This semester has been self-study with interaction with the instructor as needed.  If I did not have training in a related area (electronics technology) he would be failing horribly.

Thanks for your love and care for your son - children with special needs are their own unique gift and challenge all wrapped up together.

John_Hannah

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3706 on: May 05, 2021, 01:17:37 PM »
My conclusion: kids that are gifted, self-motivated, and privileged with both finances and parental attention have done well. Any child that can't check all of those boxes?  Oof. And as the parent of a child with diagnosed special needs, don't even get me rolling on how well distance learning worked for kids with IEPs.

My son has a learning disability and is studying to be an industrial electrician.  This semester has been self-study with interaction with the instructor as needed.  If I did not have training in a related area (electronics technology) he would be failing horribly.

Thanks for your love and care for your son - children with special needs are their own unique gift and challenge all wrapped up together.

I do not dispute Rob and James. We are outliers. My grandson is a special needs student and is doing better when remote, every other week. It is a (pleasant) surprise to me.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3707 on: May 05, 2021, 10:03:34 PM »
I was in a church meeting with some members this evening and discussion briefly drifted to what we plan to do come fall.  My daughter, who is one of my regular organists, is returning to CUC, so that leaves my wife as the primary musician, with one other lady who occasionally fills in.  Thus, I talked about discontinuing the extra Thursday evening service.  But some of those coming to this more sparsely attended service do not feel comfortable in the more heavily attended Sunday service, and would therefore stop attending in-person.  If everyone was at least masked they might feel more comfortable. The feeling is that fall may still be too early to let down the usual protective measures.

My wife heard about one parish that offered a second service that was "mask only," giving the option for those who only feel comfortable if everyone is masked.  It sounded like an idea worth toying with.  I know some will still not come until they can be sure everyone is masked and vaccinated, but the likelihood of that occurring is low to very unlikely. 

Have any of you heard of churches that offered this option? 

I wonder if some people will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease. 

Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3708 on: May 05, 2021, 10:13:51 PM »
I was in a church meeting with some members this evening and discussion briefly drifted to what we plan to do come fall.  My daughter, who is one of my regular organists, is returning to CUC, so that leaves my wife as the primary musician, with one other lady who occasionally fills in.  Thus, I talked about discontinuing the extra Thursday evening service.  But some of those coming to this more sparsely attended service do not feel comfortable in the more heavily attended Sunday service, and would therefore stop attending in-person.  If everyone was at least masked they might feel more comfortable. The feeling is that fall may still be too early to let down the usual protective measures.

My wife heard about one parish that offered a second service that was "mask only," giving the option for those who only feel comfortable if everyone is masked.  It sounded like an idea worth toying with.  I know some will still not come until they can be sure everyone is masked and vaccinated, but the likelihood of that occurring is low to very unlikely. 

Have any of you heard of churches that offered this option? 

I wonder if some people will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease. 


This wouldn't solve the Covid problems, but CPH does offer a CD set of accompaniments for the hymns and services in LSB. It is also an option with Lutheran Service Builder. That could be used for your Thursday services.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3709 on: May 05, 2021, 11:13:08 PM »
My wife heard about one parish that offered a second service that was "mask only," giving the option for those who only feel comfortable if everyone is masked.  It sounded like an idea worth toying with.  I know some will still not come until they can be sure everyone is masked and vaccinated, but the likelihood of that occurring is low to very unlikely. 

Have any of you heard of churches that offered this option? 

I wonder if some people will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease.

Some churches have multiple services with varying levels of precautions, with the unmasked service occurring as the final one of the day.  Last service lest those who "will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease" not fret that an unmasked person might have left some residue on a pew or other surface.

Anecdotally the unmasked services have the highest attendance.

In Orthodoxy we are bound by the Canons limiting us to "one Liturgy, one Altar, one day"; however, early in the pandemic Metropolitan Gerasimos of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco extended economia to parishes with more than one Priest to allow each Priest to serve a Liturgy--smaller attendance through division.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 11:14:55 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3710 on: May 06, 2021, 09:38:18 AM »

I wonder if some people will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease.

I think you are correct in your wondering.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3711 on: May 06, 2021, 10:57:03 AM »

I wonder if some people will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease.

I think you are correct in your wondering.

Jeremy

Some of this may be geographical.  I don't wonder.  I know that some people are going to take a long time to regain any sense of comfort without certain measures in place.  We have asked and assessed and to date, there are zero people who want to go to church in a service where people including themselves are not wearing masks.  At the same time, I receive some emails from larger midwestern congregations.  One I got yesterday was the pastor stating that the "Mask Only" service was cancelled because no one had attended for three weeks.  So there are different points of view from different quadrants.

Dave Benke

Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3712 on: May 06, 2021, 11:28:13 AM »
Getting the Covid vaccine is risky. According to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) which is managed by the CDC and FDA as of April 23 there were 3,362 deaths in the US after receiving one of the vaccines. In 2019 203 people died after receiving a flu shot. There is a real risk associated with the Covid vaccines and to pretend otherwise is a lie. Those who claim that it is foolish, stupid, irresponsible not to be vaccinated because there is no risk are lying to us.


So there is a risk associated with being vaccinated, and that risk should not be ignored. For those who died or had loved ones die it certainly was not negligible. We're talking about far more serious adverse reactions than a sore arm or a day or two feeling under the weather. What we are talking about then is not "Why not be vaccinated, what could it hurt?" since apparently it could kill you, but rather balancing the risk of being vaccinated versus the risk of not being vaccinated. One only need look at India these days, or think back to most of 2020 to see the risks of not being vaccinated. When one considers the death toll from Covid compared to the death toll from the vaccines and the disruption to the life of the nation and the world that the unchecked pandemic wrought (or for that matter what the pre-vaccine precautions wrought) to the risks of taking the vaccine, it seems apparent that the risk of not being vaccinated (barring some medical condition that would make the vaccine even riskier) is far greater than the risks associated with being vaccinated. Add to that the social risks of having a significant unvaccinated population and thus needing to keep in place the other mitigation strategies (masking, isolation, closing or reduced capacity for businesses and venues). The vaccine is significantly less risky than the alternatives and thus well worth the risk.


That said, people often do not view relative risk rationally. Statistically speaking one is in much greater danger driving to the airport than in flying to ones destination. Yet far, far more fear flying and refuse to fly than refuse to get into a car. While it may be more emotionally satisfying to treat with scorn and loathing those who are fearful of the vaccine and choose not to take it, among other things once again asserting ones moral, social, and intellectual superiority, a better strategy may well be to talk them through the risks and appeal to their sense of social responsibility. Alas, we shall always have with us those who deal with fear less than rationally, and value feeding their ego with smug superiority over reaching out to their neighbor with sympathy and concern.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3713 on: May 06, 2021, 11:52:10 AM »
I think that the issue of risk has been greatly affected by this pandemic.  Some people, like my late mother, deal with debilitating anxiety on a whole host of matters. The anxiety is debilitating.  And this crisis only exacerbated it.  Thus, we are not only dealing with a health crisis now, but also a burgeoning mental health crisis.  I think that some people, who were able to deal with normal risk fairly well pre-COVID, now are much more fearful. 

The reaction to being in church and the fears that this produces still perplexes me, and to some degree concerns me.  I am not aware that churches, in general, were ever officially identified as confirmed 'super spreader' venues.  Many, if not most, churches, implemented safety protocols as soon as they could open their doors legally.  Yet, somehow, for some, the church is identified in their minds as a dangerous and risk-filled place to be. But the degree of that fear varies.  Some feel that we are still within the pandemic, even if it is waning in many places in our country, and this fall we should still be cautious.  We can come to church, but more than 30 people is still pushing the boundaries of comfort and security.  For others, I sense that until we reach true "heard immunity" attending church in person is out of the question.  For others wanting to be more restrictive yet, until all people wear masks and are vaccinated the church is going to have too much risk for the average person.  Yet statistics present the risk not as high, but, at least in my view, as now manageable.  Yes, COVID is still present within the population, more in some areas, less than others.  However, we hear that New York, once the epicenter of this plague, has plans for opening much of its city at least by September. 

I know that even prior to the pandemic some questions of hygiene had already arisen.  Greeting people before the service (sometimes erroneously called in some places the 'sharing of the peace') where you turn around and shake hands, was uncomfortable for certain people.  I had one lady deliberately come late so that she could avoid this.  Passing the plate will probably not be reintroduced in many, of not most, places given the mere fact that it is something that just doesn't feel at all clean with so many hands touching it.  Some churches may rethink congregation-wide and especially community-wide dinners for the near foreseeable future. Church will not look like it did before the pandemic hit and altered our whole way of life. 

At a meeting this week I heard that some churches in my district are discontinuing live-streamed services because they think it is discouraging people from attending in-person.  That may be true for some.  But for others it is still the only way they feel safe.  How long will that continue?  I don't know, but I sense that it will last longer than many of us first thought.  Whether being in church is genuinely risky from a health perspective is not something being reasoned through purely on science.  It is sometimes an irrational fear born of the overwhelming fears driven by a worldwide pandemic.  We just can't disengage from the fear.  It becomes a kind of paranoia.  Mental health professionals will certainly be sorting this out for many, many years.  But I know that the pandemic has left its searing mark on the hearts and minds of many, and some will not easily or quickly recover.  To that end the church is going to have to figure out how best to minister to this 'new normal.'
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 11:56:32 AM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3714 on: May 06, 2021, 01:18:09 PM »
I was in a church meeting with some members this evening and discussion briefly drifted to what we plan to do come fall.  My daughter, who is one of my regular organists, is returning to CUC, so that leaves my wife as the primary musician, with one other lady who occasionally fills in.  Thus, I talked about discontinuing the extra Thursday evening service.  But some of those coming to this more sparsely attended service do not feel comfortable in the more heavily attended Sunday service, and would therefore stop attending in-person.  If everyone was at least masked they might feel more comfortable. The feeling is that fall may still be too early to let down the usual protective measures.

My wife heard about one parish that offered a second service that was "mask only," giving the option for those who only feel comfortable if everyone is masked.  It sounded like an idea worth toying with.  I know some will still not come until they can be sure everyone is masked and vaccinated, but the likelihood of that occurring is low to very unlikely. 

Have any of you heard of churches that offered this option? 

I wonder if some people will never again feel comfortable inside a church building where everyone is not encased in some kind of prophylactic barrier against potential infections and disease. 


This wouldn't solve the Covid problems, but CPH does offer a CD set of accompaniments for the hymns and services in LSB. It is also an option with Lutheran Service Builder. That could be used for your Thursday services.

That's what we've used the last couple of years after our organist retired and spends the winters in Arizona. Works out well.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

D. Engebretson

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3715 on: May 06, 2021, 01:37:30 PM »
Thank you, Dan and Don for the suggestion of the LSB CD idea.  I am checking with one of my other organists to see how much she may be available once my daughter leaves again for college, but that sounds like a viable option, and I believe one of my neighboring circuit parishes uses this. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3716 on: May 06, 2021, 02:40:21 PM »
Getting the Covid vaccine is risky. According to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) which is managed by the CDC and FDA as of April 23 there were 3,362 deaths in the US after receiving one of the vaccines. In 2019 203 people died after receiving a flu shot. There is a real risk associated with the Covid vaccines and to pretend otherwise is a lie. Those who claim that it is foolish, stupid, irresponsible not to be vaccinated because there is no risk are lying to us.


There have been nearly 580,000 deaths from COVID in the U.S. If they are afraid because of the 3362 deaths after a vaccine shot, shouldn't they be even more worried about catching the disease?


42,060 people died in vehicle crashes in 2020. If they are afraid because of the 3362 deaths after a vaccine shot, shouldn't they be even more worried about driving or riding in an automobile?


As nearly always we are reminded, correlation is not necessarily causation. I don't know that the vaccine shot has been shown to be the cause of all of those deaths.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3717 on: May 06, 2021, 02:42:21 PM »
Thank you, Dan and Don for the suggestion of the LSB CD idea.  I am checking with one of my other organists to see how much she may be available once my daughter leaves again for college, but that sounds like a viable option, and I believe one of my neighboring circuit parishes uses this.


I believe that Nadia Bolz-Weber grew her non-traditional Lutheran congregation by singing hymns without accompaniment. The voices filled the space.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3718 on: May 06, 2021, 03:07:00 PM »
I believe that Nadia Bolz-Weber grew her non-traditional Lutheran congregation by singing hymns without accompaniment. The voices filled the space.

Every Orthodox mission has been grown through singing hymns and liturgy without accompaniment.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3719 on: May 06, 2021, 03:45:22 PM »
Getting the Covid vaccine is risky. According to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) which is managed by the CDC and FDA as of April 23 there were 3,362 deaths in the US after receiving one of the vaccines. In 2019 203 people died after receiving a flu shot. There is a real risk associated with the Covid vaccines and to pretend otherwise is a lie. Those who claim that it is foolish, stupid, irresponsible not to be vaccinated because there is no risk are lying to us.


There have been nearly 580,000 deaths from COVID in the U.S. If they are afraid because of the 3362 deaths after a vaccine shot, shouldn't they be even more worried about catching the disease?


42,060 people died in vehicle crashes in 2020. If they are afraid because of the 3362 deaths after a vaccine shot, shouldn't they be even more worried about driving or riding in an automobile?


As nearly always we are reminded, correlation is not necessarily causation. I don't know that the vaccine shot has been shown to be the cause of all of those deaths.
If you read the rest of my post you would have seen that the risks of not taking the vaccine seem higher than taking it. I do not think that the risks associated with the vaccines in almost all cases make it more reasonable not to take it than to take it. My point was that to try to assure people that there are no risks with the vaccine. There are. We help people be reasonable about risk by acknowledging the risks that are there and helping them compare the various risks. We cannot live without risk, it is a part of life.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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