Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 399024 times)

jebutler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3540 on: April 16, 2021, 01:28:56 PM »
James Butler writes:
Silly government--Yesterday, the WaPo had a front page picture of Prez Biden at Arlington. He was the only person in the picture. There was literally no one else around. Why was he wearing a mask? Who among the dead was he concerned about infecting? It was pure virtue signaling.
I comment:
First, there were surely other people around sometime during that visit.

So? He got his second shot on January 11 (https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-2nd-dose-coronavirus-vaccine-b2c712454cceca075875e994393df02f) That's three months ago. He's as vaccinated as anyone.

I would assume that the entire White House staff has been vaccinated.

Now if there are reporters along for the ride who haven't been vaccinated make them wear triple masks, quadruple masks. That's their problem.

Second, wearing the mask might have been symbolic, a reminder that we should do such things. Do you have a problem with that?

A symbolic reminder to do what things? Wear a mask when I'm all alone? Why would I do that?

Wear a mask when I'm a month past my second vaccination? There is a less than one in 10,000 chance that I could be infected and a less than 1 in 100,000 that the infection would be serious. The most recent research says that there is no chance at all that I can transmit the disease.

You want to know what symbolic message I'd like to see him make? "Get vaccinated so we can dispose of the masks and get back to normal." To me, that's the better message.

Third, your comment is not in line with our beloved eighth Commandment direction to put the best construction on things.

I think calling someone walking in a cemetery by himself with a mask on two months after he's been vaccinated "virtue signaling" is putting the best construction on it. You said the same thing, calling it "symbolic."

Are you upset because I'm pro-vax or something?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 01:31:01 PM by jebutler »
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

jebutler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3541 on: April 16, 2021, 01:45:02 PM »
The masks for those who are vaccinated are not to protect us. They are because it is unclear whether we might still be carriers and capable of infecting others. I thought everyone knew this.

The most recent research--out of Israel--demonstrates that the "Can they carry the virus in their nostrils?" question has been answered: No. Once your fully vaccinated, there's little chance that you can transmit the disease.


Yes, they are annoying. So are seatbelts. So is going 20 miles an hour in a school zone.

These are non-sequiturs.

BTW we read in the news today that Ivanka Trump took a lot of heat from her fathers supporters because she was videotaped getting the vaccine and encouraging others to get it. You can work on that however you wish.

Some people are stupid, I mean, really, really stupid; that's how I work that out.

I don't think anyone can question that Operation Warp Speed is Trump's greatest legacy. Last year at this time, medical experts were openly scoffing at the suggestion that we would have a working vaccine by the end of 2020. We had two of them and doses were being administered--his administration pulled it off. So by giving this heat, their dunking on his greatest legacy.

I've told the Trump fans around me that if they really want to celebrate the legacy of the president that they love so much, if they want to show up the "Demoncrats" and "Libtards", if they really want to "own the libs" (their words, not mine) then go get vaccinated. That way they can point out that their guy did what everyone said was impossible and they stand behind him 100%.
The truth we preach is not an abstract thing. The truth is a Person. The goodness we preach is not an ideal quality. The goodness is Someone who is good. The love we preach is God himself in Christ. --H. Grady Davis

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5336
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3542 on: April 16, 2021, 02:07:22 PM »
Using the pejorative neologism "virtue signalling" may be part of the problem here. It carries its own snark with it. E.g.
Quote
Psychologists Jillian Jordan and David Rand argue that virtue signalling is separable from true outrage towards a particular belief, but that in most cases individuals who are virtue signalling are in fact simultaneously experiencing true outrage. Linguist David Shariatmadari argues in The Guardian that the very act of accusing someone of virtue signalling is an act of virtue signalling in itself, and that its overuse as an ad hominem attack during political debate has rendered it a meaningless political buzzword.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling

That has nothing to do with a President wearing a mask in the cemetery, or his intention in doing so. He was likely to be criticized whether he wore it or not. You pick.

As for me and my church, our default currently is wear a mask. YMMV

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Coach-Rev

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
  • Rev. Jeff Cottingham, STS
    • View Profile
    • Trinity Lutheran Church
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3543 on: April 16, 2021, 02:45:35 PM »

As for me and my church, our default currently is wear a mask. YMMV


That's your position and your right.  I just happen to disagree.  Ours has always been that masks are an individual choice, and hardly anyone has ever worn them.  In the past year, we've had 7 people who tested positive within 2-3 days of attending church, and two of them died, although not due directly to Covid.  Also in that time, none of them instigated a super spreader event in our congregation.  We've pretty much resumed everything at this point, including after  church fellowship.  If anyone is nervous about Covid, they are more than welcome to participate in our live stream.  We gave the government two weeks to slow the spread.  Hell, we gave them 2 months last year.   

I'm not even going to go into the science behind the ineffectiveness of cloth and paper masks, or the data showing how lockdowns were a colossal mistake.
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

blog:  http://coach-rev.blogspot.com/
photography:  https://jeffcottingham.smugmug.com/

James S. Rustad

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 995
  • μολὼν λαβέ
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3544 on: April 16, 2021, 02:58:29 PM »
Actually, the investigation showed that they seem to have simply forgotten about adding the chemical.  It was mentioned briefly during one meeting and never again.  One serious oops.

I'm unfamiliar with the particular facts on this, and this is the first I've heard it.  Not doubting your honesty in sharing, but if this is true ("big if true!" ::) ), it is yet another example of how a narrative can take over a story in the service of some "greater good".

While I am certain that I saw this on a TV news piece as an interview snippet from someone at the meeting I mentioned , I cannot find a source for it now.  Consequently I should not have stated it quite the way I did.  I will point to this line from the first paragraph of the executive summary in the final report of the Flint task force report:

With the City of Flint under emergency management, the Flint Water Department rushed unprepared into full-time operation of the Flint Water Treatment Plant, drawing water from a highly corrosive source without the use of corrosion control.

The report goes on to describe serious errors on the part of just about every government body responsible for water quality.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 03:01:31 PM by James S. Rustad »

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4082
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3545 on: April 16, 2021, 03:16:11 PM »
BTW we read in the news today that Ivanka Trump took a lot of heat from her fathers supporters because she was videotaped getting the vaccine and encouraging others to get it. You can work on that however you wish.


James Butler writes:Silly government--Yesterday, the WaPo had a front page picture of Prez Biden at Arlington. He was the only person in the picture. There was literally no one else around. Why was he wearing a mask? Who among the dead was he concerned about infecting? It was pure virtue signaling.I comment:. . . . . .Third, your comment is not in line with our beloved eighth Commandment direction to put the best construction on things.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12453
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3546 on: April 17, 2021, 08:22:01 AM »
Using the pejorative neologism "virtue signalling" may be part of the problem here. It carries its own snark with it. E.g.
Quote
Psychologists Jillian Jordan and David Rand argue that virtue signalling is separable from true outrage towards a particular belief, but that in most cases individuals who are virtue signalling are in fact simultaneously experiencing true outrage. Linguist David Shariatmadari argues in The Guardian that the very act of accusing someone of virtue signalling is an act of virtue signalling in itself, and that its overuse as an ad hominem attack during political debate has rendered it a meaningless political buzzword.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling

That has nothing to do with a President wearing a mask in the cemetery, or his intention in doing so. He was likely to be criticized whether he wore it or not. You pick.

As for me and my church, our default currently is wear a mask. YMMV

Peace,
Michael

Our mileage does not vary in the Atlantic District.  Default has been and remains wearing masks.  I say this because I've been at a few extra-congregational events recently.  All clergy and laity wear masks. 

Dave Benke

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4608
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3547 on: April 17, 2021, 09:18:08 AM »
Just thinking out loud.  We are told by CDC statistics that there is a rate of breakthrough infection in about 0.008% for vaccinated people.  Studies have also shown that the Pfizer vaccine cuts asymptomatic infection by 94%. I will assume the rates are similar for the other vaccines. So very, very few vaccinated people are actually potentially infecting other people, assuming no protective protocols in place.  So coming back to our mask discussion, why are vaccinated people still required to wear masks?  It comes down to risk tolerance.  Now I know we would all like the above statistics to reflect no asymptomatic infection transference, or reinfection of those already vaccinated.  But at what point do we realize that 100% does not occur in the real world? At what point do we lessen the protocols? Every year between 3% and 11% of people are infected with the seasonal flu virus.  Prior to COVID-19 we encouraged widespread annual vaccination for the flu virus predicted to be dominant that year, something I have participated in every year since the early 90s.  In 2009, I believe, I contracted what was thought to be H1N1 or the Swine Flu.  Nasty stuff.  And that on top of my bronchitis. I'm almost certain that I was vaccinated that year, but as we know these vaccinations are merely an educated guess.  Sometimes they hit the targeted virus and sometimes they don't. 

I'm not against masks and will be wearing one today when I'm out celebrating my son's birthday in a nearby city - outdoors, I might add due to concerns of other family members.  But it would appear that I pose a very, very small statistical risk to them, even if I did not wear my mask.  Again, I'll wear it, so no one has to jump on me for putting them at undue risk. 

But I'm wondering as much about the future as about today.  I've mentioned the idea of risk before. At what point is the risk considered both manageable and negligible?  The odds that I will die in a motor vehicle accident is 1 in 107.  The odds of dying from a fall is 1 in 106, which as a firefighter I can say I'm definitely pressing my luck, as I most likely cracked a rib this year already in a fall on scene.  Those statistical odds are in the range of about .009%, a little higher than my risk, at present, of suffering a breakthrough infection with COVID-19 as a fully vaccinated person.

Again, just thinking about loud and wondering where we are going down the road.  Not everyone will be vaccinated.  That's a given.  The virus will not entirely disappear from the population, either nationally or internationally.  That's a given. Those of us who were vaccinated will probably have to have a 'booster' shot in 6 months to a year. That's a given, on top of the other vaccination I will receive next fall.  At what point do we say we can live as we did before the pandemic? At what point will the level of risk be manageable and negligible?

 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

J. Thomas Shelley

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3548 on: April 17, 2021, 10:35:18 AM »
A thought provoking essay on risk and suffering by Denise McAllister:

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/04/covid_and_the_desperate_avoidance_of_suffering.html

Quote

...Our entire attitude needs to change about who we are in relationship to nature's order and what role suffering plays in our lives.  Suffering is not always an injustice.  It can be a means to the good life; it can even be part of the good life, because it shapes us, molds us, and refines us into something better.  The joy we find in suffering comes from the realization that it is deserved — thereby renewing our confidence in a sacred order of justice — and it can be a means to improve our lives, maybe not outwardly, but certainly in our souls.

This doesn't mean we should always allow suffering to continue so virtue can abound.  Out of love, we want to improve the lives of others, heal them from sickness, free them from hunger, pain, and poverty.  But this grace is not a right.  You have a right not to be hurt by others, but you do not have a right to be healed by others or protected from any hurt unleashed by nature.

The only way you could come to the conclusion that you have a right to avoid suffering is to think human beings are not personally responsible for anything, that we are entirely passive in what happens to us, that we are perfect as individuals, and therefore, anything negative that happens to us is caused by someone else — that our suffering is always a social injustice.

This is simply not the case.  While sometimes suffering is caused by another person and an act of injustice, most often, it is not.  It is merely the result of living in a world where we are not gods, where nature still dominates us despite our technology, where natural inequalities flourish, where people get sick and die, and where we are still under judgment in the sacred order and subject to the turbulence of this broken world.

Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

JEdwards

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3549 on: April 18, 2021, 07:32:13 AM »
There is an interesting opinion piece in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine on the interplay between scientific studies, values and priorities, communication, and trust. Although the immediate context is COVID vaccine hesitancy, many of the author’s observations and recommendations represent sound general advice for both physicians and pastors:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2101989

Peace,
Jon

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5367
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3550 on: April 18, 2021, 01:49:39 PM »
There is an interesting opinion piece in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine on the interplay between scientific studies, values and priorities, communication, and trust. Although the immediate context is COVID vaccine hesitancy, many of the author’s observations and recommendations represent sound general advice for both physicians and pastors:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2101989

Peace,
Jon

This is an excellent discussion of medical care. Applicable also for the manner of pastoral care. Thanks, Jon, for bringing it to us.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Rob Morris

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3551 on: April 18, 2021, 06:10:46 PM »
There is an interesting opinion piece in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine on the interplay between scientific studies, values and priorities, communication, and trust. Although the immediate context is COVID vaccine hesitancy, many of the author’s observations and recommendations represent sound general advice for both physicians and pastors:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2101989

Peace,
Jon

This is an excellent discussion of medical care. Applicable also for the manner of pastoral care. Thanks, Jon, for bringing it to us.

Peace, JOHN

I add my words of thanks as well! Quality resources like this are the reason I still dredge through all of the political sniping that happens hereabouts.

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5336
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3552 on: April 18, 2021, 08:00:21 PM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5367
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3553 on: April 18, 2021, 08:26:02 PM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael

That's what I was thinking too.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

JEdwards

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3554 on: April 18, 2021, 09:41:15 PM »
I agree. It is a very helpful article. I wish I had the first part--
Quote
This article is Part 2 in a two-part series.

Peace,
Michael

Here it is:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2027985

Peace,
Jon