Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 394530 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3255 on: March 10, 2021, 11:50:26 AM »
Dream on, Peter. The teachers unions are indeed some of the most powerful and, I dare say, well respected unions in the country. They rank right up there with the police and firefighter  unions.
And yes they will survive because public education is one of the founding institutions of our country and remains again, I dare say, one of the most respected institutions in our country, despite your personal opinion.
You can do your home schooling, that is allowed, but I believe your children still have to search meet certain standards when they are homeschooled.
We could have our parochial schools, and that is a good mission for our churches, if they can support themselves and if the parents really want them.
Public education is indeed an institution that needs to continue. Just ask any of the millions of parents who have tried to deal with educating their children during this past year. I believe the standing of public education has risen considerably now that some people have experienced what it is like without it.
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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3256 on: March 10, 2021, 12:44:52 PM »
Dream on, Peter. The teachers unions are indeed some of the most powerful and, I dare say, well respected unions in the country. They rank right up there with the police and firefighter  unions.
And yes they will survive because public education is one of the founding institutions of our country and remains again, I dare say, one of the most respected institutions in our country, despite your personal opinion.
You can do your home schooling, that is allowed, but I believe your children still have to search meet certain standards when they are homeschooled.
We could have our parochial schools, and that is a good mission for our churches, if they can support themselves and if the parents really want them.
Public education is indeed an institution that needs to continue. Just ask any of the millions of parents who have tried to deal with educating their children during this past year. I believe the standing of public education has risen considerably now that some people have experienced what it is like without it.
A standard linguistic sleight of hand is to confuse public education with teachers' unions. Wisconsin is a largely blue state and the public schools went down hard there a decade ago because the public didn't and doesn't like their stranglehold on education funding and partisan agenda. But public education has somehow managed to continue in Wisconsin. Chicago, NY, and LA would be drastically better off in all ways if something similar happened there.

There are good reasons many public school teachers and administrators (many with six figure salaries) do not send their own children to the schools where they teach. And if you, Charles, lived in Chicago, you would see to it that your children went to private schools. You know that, I know that, it is not worth denying. Because they are bad schools, controlled utterly by corrupt, incompetent machine politics, including the unions. That is what you support and seek to perpetuate (for others, not yourself) against more sane political voices calling for school choice, vouchers, charter schools, and other alternatives that reduce teacher union clout.   

Dave Likeness

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3257 on: March 10, 2021, 12:58:33 PM »
It is interesting that many private & parochial elementary and high schools
have remained open during most of the pandemic in America. They used masks
and social distancing in the classrooms with much success. One of the differences
between public and private schools is the political agenda of some state governors.
Public school children become pawns in this process with the red versus blue states.

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3258 on: March 10, 2021, 01:15:30 PM »

Where I live in KCMO, the border war between the two states is still a thing. Neither state wants to be like the other. It's funny and sad. And the coronavirus had the local governments competing over who could keep their people safest, or who could open up the fastest. "We will do things because we're not those rich snobs in Johnson Co. KS." "We're better than KCK and we'll prove it by working against them to keep them in a lower spot."


Do not confuse Johnson County with KCK. I lived in Johnson County. There was a similar line between itself and Wyandotte County (where KCK is located). Johnson County is wealthier and Republican. Wyandotte County is Democratic. Overland Park in Johnson County has a larger population than Kansas City, Kansas, in Wyandotte County. The pastor of a Methodist church on County Line Road said that there were people who refused to come to church there because it was on the wrong side of the road. It was in the wrong county.


Back then, late 1980s, the LCMS clergy I knew said that the Kansas District was quite different from the Missouri District.

I wasn't.  I know that KCK is Wyandotte County.  I was writing on my phone this morning and didn't feel like spending any more time giving examples.  The "Big Four" are KCMO, KCK, Johnson Co KS and Jackson Co MO.  Sometimes they get along and work together, sometimes they don't and work at cross purposes.  And yes, Johnson Co is the wealthiest county in all of KS.  And from my own observations, has the highest per capita Tesla ownership of any locality in the country. 


Others who aren't familiar with the area may have confused the two. When we lived in Johnson Co. we heard that it was the 9th wealthiest county in the nation. (We certainly didn't contribute to that statistic.)
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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3259 on: March 10, 2021, 01:21:05 PM »

Where I live in KCMO, the border war between the two states is still a thing. Neither state wants to be like the other. It's funny and sad. And the coronavirus had the local governments competing over who could keep their people safest, or who could open up the fastest. "We will do things because we're not those rich snobs in Johnson Co. KS." "We're better than KCK and we'll prove it by working against them to keep them in a lower spot."


Do not confuse Johnson County with KCK. I lived in Johnson County. There was a similar line between itself and Wyandotte County (where KCK is located). Johnson County is wealthier and Republican. Wyandotte County is Democratic. Overland Park in Johnson County has a larger population than Kansas City, Kansas, in Wyandotte County. The pastor of a Methodist church on County Line Road said that there were people who refused to come to church there because it was on the wrong side of the road. It was in the wrong county.


Back then, late 1980s, the LCMS clergy I knew said that the Kansas District was quite different from the Missouri District.

The KCK BBQ is much better than the Johnson County BBQ...So yeah, don't confuse the two.


But the BBQ restaurant (not a "joint") we went to in Johnson County, had damp, cloth towels for the customers for cleaning our hands and faces, rather than paper napkins or paper towels. :)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

aletheist

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3260 on: March 10, 2021, 01:33:46 PM »
The KCK BBQ is much better than the Johnson County BBQ.
Blasphemy! ;D My family has considered Hayward's the best BBQ restaurant in the world for more than 40 years.
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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3261 on: March 10, 2021, 02:06:04 PM »
Peter writes:
There are good reasons many public school teachers and administrators (many with six figure salaries) do not send their own children to the schools where they teach.
I comment:
If someone usually with 15 to 20 years of experience and advanced degrees is running an operation spending many millions of dollars of tax money, employing hundreds, perhaps thousands of people, why should they not have a six figure salary?
And you intend to read their minds as to why they send their children to particular schools? How do you do that?

Peter:
And if you, Charles, lived in Chicago, you would see to it that your children went to private schools. You know that, I know that, it is not worth denying. Because they are bad schools, controlled utterly by corrupt, incompetent machine politics, including the unions.
Me:
You make a lot of assumptions and you offer very little proof for them. But that’s OK, this is not that kind of discussion.

Peter:
That is what you support and seek to perpetuate (for others, not yourself) against more sane political voices calling for school choice, vouchers, charter schools, and other alternatives that reduce teacher union clout.   
Me:
Beloved Spouse was a teacher for nearly 40 years. She was also active in teachers’ unions in Iowa, Illinois, New York, and New Jersey, mostly in New Jersey. And as a reporter covering towns in New Jersey, I got to know a lot about schools, boards of education, and conflicts between unions and boards of education and occasionally parents regarding schools. Newsflash: not all those “political voices” are by any means “sane.”
And I’ll let your bitter diatribe against teachers and their unions pass.
Let’s look at another profession and see what might be said about the institution of the church, its clergy, its use of finances, its internal and Extertal squabbles. Do you want to see corruption? Do you want to see self-serving greed? It’s not as bad as many people outside the church think but it is present. A lot of ignorant folks speak about the church the way you speak about public education.
The same way those things may be present within public education, but nowhere near as bad as the slander that you lay upon teachers, administrators and unions.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 02:08:22 PM by Charles Austin »
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DeHall1

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3262 on: March 10, 2021, 02:11:05 PM »
The KCK BBQ is much better than the Johnson County BBQ.
Blasphemy! ;D My family has considered Hayward's the best BBQ restaurant in the world for more than 40 years.
Nothing says "Kansas City" like arguing over who has the best BBQ  :D
Slap's BBQ (on Central in KCK) is currently my favorite.   I have no idea who "Mike Johnson" is, but the BBQ sandwich that carries his name at Slap's made him my hero.

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3263 on: March 10, 2021, 02:24:21 PM »
Peter writes:
There are good reasons many public school teachers and administrators (many with six figure salaries) do not send their own children to the schools where they teach.
I comment:
If someone usually with 15 to 20 years of experience and advanced degrees is running an operation spending many millions of dollars of tax money, employing hundreds, perhaps thousands of people, why should they not have a six figure salary?
And you intend to read their minds as to why they send their children to particular schools? How do you do that?

Peter:
And if you, Charles, lived in Chicago, you would see to it that your children went to private schools. You know that, I know that, it is not worth denying. Because they are bad schools, controlled utterly by corrupt, incompetent machine politics, including the unions.
Me:
You make a lot of assumptions and you offer very little proof for them. But that’s OK, this is not that kind of discussion.

Peter:
That is what you support and seek to perpetuate (for others, not yourself) against more sane political voices calling for school choice, vouchers, charter schools, and other alternatives that reduce teacher union clout.   
Me:
Beloved Spouse was a teacher for nearly 40 years. She was also active in teachers’ unions in Iowa, Illinois, New York, and New Jersey, mostly in New Jersey. And as a reporter covering towns in New Jersey, I got to know a lot about schools, boards of education, and conflicts between unions and boards of education and occasionally parents regarding schools. Newsflash: not all those “political voices” are by any means “sane.”
And I’ll let your bitter diatribe against teachers and their unions pass.
Let’s look at another profession and see what might be said about the institution of the church, its clergy, its use of finances, its internal and Extertal squabbles. Do you want to see corruption? Do you want to see self-serving greed? It’s not as bad as many people outside the church think but it is present. A lot of ignorant folks speak about the church the way you speak about public education.
The same way those things may be present within public education, but nowhere near as bad as the slander that you lay upon teachers, administrators and unions.
You type a lot without addressing any of the points you're ostensibly responding to or making any salient points yourself. You are a hardcore machine Democrat. Got it. 

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3264 on: March 10, 2021, 02:59:01 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-teachers-warned-to-not-share-vacation-pics-as-union-seeks-safe-return-to-classrooms-report

It is unconscionable for teachers' unions to be refusing to go back to work. There is plenty of data concerning the harm they are causing and no data to back up their claims that schools are particularly unsafe. I think the pandemic could be the last gasp of public school teachers' unions. There is too much evidence that when compared to other options the public schools do less with more. This refusal to work will push many fence-sitters toward the more rational options of school choice and homeschooling.

The teacher's union of teacher's unions is ours here in NYC.   And we are going back to in-person high school in two weeks, having already gone back to middle school and grammar school.  Not by the way, the UPK (Universal Pre-Kindergarten) programs all had the option for in-person learning throughout the pandemic. 

The unsafe nature of schools is not - from this vantage point - primarily about the children, but about the adults.  When an adult had the virus at our school (UPK), we were on virtual only for ten days.  In other words, there are solutions that make some sense; I know of nobody who does not want full in-person sessions to be the norm.  Our parishioners who are professional teachers in the public system have had a very tough year, and yet have performed heroically in bringing their best to a not-great situation day in and day out. 
Educators and school staff have been prioritized for vaccination here, and I think (hope?) that's the case nationwide. 

Finally, I actually don't think this will be the "last gasp of the teacher's unions," or the demise of public education in favor of choice or homeschooling. 

Dave Benke
Why do you think the major public school teachers' unions will survive, because they are too politically powerful or because they serve an important function that needs to continue?

Both. 

The choices are there for people who don't want a public school education pretty much nationwide, as far as I can tell.   In NYC we have many charter schools, and some of my members teach/work in that system as well as the public system.  It's on a lottery system, but the "edge" is given to the underserved neighborhoods.  A bigger issue here is the gifted and talented public schools - in the "old" days the student bodies at those schools was highly Jewish.  Now it's highly Asian.  The test metrics are what's under scrutiny.  But we still have close to a million students in public school here, one of them a block from my house - people spend a lot of money to move to our zip code so they can get into that public school.  Off the topic a bit, but my Asian friends tell me that their #1 or #2 children get ticketed for the best public schools through HS and then into tier one universities.  Then they pay for after-school tutoring for those kids.  Because a great percentage of Asians are also dedicated Christians, child #3 goes to the Catholic or Lutheran school, which are less challenging academically.  No after school tutoring needed.

And the unions are powerful. 

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3265 on: March 10, 2021, 03:29:04 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-teachers-warned-to-not-share-vacation-pics-as-union-seeks-safe-return-to-classrooms-report

It is unconscionable for teachers' unions to be refusing to go back to work. There is plenty of data concerning the harm they are causing and no data to back up their claims that schools are particularly unsafe. I think the pandemic could be the last gasp of public school teachers' unions. There is too much evidence that when compared to other options the public schools do less with more. This refusal to work will push many fence-sitters toward the more rational options of school choice and homeschooling.

The teacher's union of teacher's unions is ours here in NYC.   And we are going back to in-person high school in two weeks, having already gone back to middle school and grammar school.  Not by the way, the UPK (Universal Pre-Kindergarten) programs all had the option for in-person learning throughout the pandemic. 

The unsafe nature of schools is not - from this vantage point - primarily about the children, but about the adults.  When an adult had the virus at our school (UPK), we were on virtual only for ten days.  In other words, there are solutions that make some sense; I know of nobody who does not want full in-person sessions to be the norm.  Our parishioners who are professional teachers in the public system have had a very tough year, and yet have performed heroically in bringing their best to a not-great situation day in and day out. 
Educators and school staff have been prioritized for vaccination here, and I think (hope?) that's the case nationwide. 

Finally, I actually don't think this will be the "last gasp of the teacher's unions," or the demise of public education in favor of choice or homeschooling. 

Dave Benke
Why do you think the major public school teachers' unions will survive, because they are too politically powerful or because they serve an important function that needs to continue?

Both. 

The choices are there for people who don't want a public school education pretty much nationwide, as far as I can tell.   In NYC we have many charter schools, and some of my members teach/work in that system as well as the public system.  It's on a lottery system, but the "edge" is given to the underserved neighborhoods.  A bigger issue here is the gifted and talented public schools - in the "old" days the student bodies at those schools was highly Jewish.  Now it's highly Asian.  The test metrics are what's under scrutiny.  But we still have close to a million students in public school here, one of them a block from my house - people spend a lot of money to move to our zip code so they can get into that public school.  Off the topic a bit, but my Asian friends tell me that their #1 or #2 children get ticketed for the best public schools through HS and then into tier one universities.  Then they pay for after-school tutoring for those kids.  Because a great percentage of Asians are also dedicated Christians, child #3 goes to the Catholic or Lutheran school, which are less challenging academically.  No after school tutoring needed.

And the unions are powerful. 

Dave Benke
But again, a public school system can survive and thrive apart from powerful teachers' unions. In fact, it is more likely than not that they would. It isn't as though the demise (or de facto demise through loss of clout) of teachers' unions would spell the end of public schools.

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3266 on: March 10, 2021, 03:35:14 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/la-teachers-warned-to-not-share-vacation-pics-as-union-seeks-safe-return-to-classrooms-report

It is unconscionable for teachers' unions to be refusing to go back to work. There is plenty of data concerning the harm they are causing and no data to back up their claims that schools are particularly unsafe. I think the pandemic could be the last gasp of public school teachers' unions. There is too much evidence that when compared to other options the public schools do less with more. This refusal to work will push many fence-sitters toward the more rational options of school choice and homeschooling.

The teacher's union of teacher's unions is ours here in NYC.   And we are going back to in-person high school in two weeks, having already gone back to middle school and grammar school.  Not by the way, the UPK (Universal Pre-Kindergarten) programs all had the option for in-person learning throughout the pandemic. 

The unsafe nature of schools is not - from this vantage point - primarily about the children, but about the adults.  When an adult had the virus at our school (UPK), we were on virtual only for ten days.  In other words, there are solutions that make some sense; I know of nobody who does not want full in-person sessions to be the norm.  Our parishioners who are professional teachers in the public system have had a very tough year, and yet have performed heroically in bringing their best to a not-great situation day in and day out. 
Educators and school staff have been prioritized for vaccination here, and I think (hope?) that's the case nationwide. 

Finally, I actually don't think this will be the "last gasp of the teacher's unions," or the demise of public education in favor of choice or homeschooling. 

Dave Benke
Why do you think the major public school teachers' unions will survive, because they are too politically powerful or because they serve an important function that needs to continue?

Both. 

The choices are there for people who don't want a public school education pretty much nationwide, as far as I can tell.   In NYC we have many charter schools, and some of my members teach/work in that system as well as the public system.  It's on a lottery system, but the "edge" is given to the underserved neighborhoods.  A bigger issue here is the gifted and talented public schools - in the "old" days the student bodies at those schools was highly Jewish.  Now it's highly Asian.  The test metrics are what's under scrutiny.  But we still have close to a million students in public school here, one of them a block from my house - people spend a lot of money to move to our zip code so they can get into that public school.  Off the topic a bit, but my Asian friends tell me that their #1 or #2 children get ticketed for the best public schools through HS and then into tier one universities.  Then they pay for after-school tutoring for those kids.  Because a great percentage of Asians are also dedicated Christians, child #3 goes to the Catholic or Lutheran school, which are less challenging academically.  No after school tutoring needed.

And the unions are powerful. 

Dave Benke
But again, a public school system can survive and thrive apart from powerful teachers' unions. In fact, it is more likely than not that they would. It isn't as though the demise (or de facto demise through loss of clout) of teachers' unions would spell the end of public schools.

You could be right.  I'm pro union, so I hope they continue.  Here's an article on the need for change in unionization while making the transition to the 21st century, a la Europe:  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/17/15290674/union-labor-movement-europe-bargaining-fight-15-ghent

Dave Benke

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3267 on: March 10, 2021, 03:36:44 PM »
But again, a public school system can survive and thrive apart from powerful teachers' unions. In fact, it is more likely than not that they would. It isn't as though the demise (or de facto demise through loss of clout) of teachers' unions would spell the end of public schools.


If the public school system is unable to hire enough teachers because they are not offering the pay and/or benefits of a unionized district, then it will not survive. It was clear when we lived in Wyoming that the wages and benefits of the union miners is what controlled the pay and benefits of the non-union mines.


The quality of the schools affects much more than children's education. I heard from a hospital employee that the hospital has troubles getting new doctors because they look at the quality of the school system (which isn't very good) and decide that they do not want to move here. One teacher told me that teachers could go less than four miles north into California and earn 1/3 more than they are making here. He is a single man with no children so he can survive on the pay he's receiving here. Teachers with a family to support have difficulties.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3268 on: March 10, 2021, 03:57:02 PM »
Again, free public education is a foundational institution of our country. We won't make it any better by denouncing or seeking the destruction of unions. We will make it better by seeing that good working conditions for teachers, good salaries, competent administrators and decent facilities are considered essential to a community.
At one school in a district where Beloved Spouse worked, there was a 100-year old with no air conditioning, no handicapped accessibility situated right next to a major highway which had been built in the last 35 years.
I'm all for parish schools - charter schools present some problems - but if a parish wants to run a school, it should not have to depend upon local, state or federal funds to do so.
And if someone doesn't like the public schools, they can do home schooling or pay for a private school, but it will be interesting to see how home-schooled students fare when they must - if they do - leave the home for the wider world of college, university, graduate school and work.
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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #3269 on: March 10, 2021, 04:24:55 PM »
But again, a public school system can survive and thrive apart from powerful teachers' unions. In fact, it is more likely than not that they would. It isn't as though the demise (or de facto demise through loss of clout) of teachers' unions would spell the end of public schools.


If the public school system is unable to hire enough teachers because they are not offering the pay and/or benefits of a unionized district, then it will not survive. It was clear when we lived in Wyoming that the wages and benefits of the union miners is what controlled the pay and benefits of the non-union mines.


The quality of the schools affects much more than children's education. I heard from a hospital employee that the hospital has troubles getting new doctors because they look at the quality of the school system (which isn't very good) and decide that they do not want to move here. One teacher told me that teachers could go less than four miles north into California and earn 1/3 more than they are making here. He is a single man with no children so he can survive on the pay he's receiving here. Teachers with a family to support have difficulties.
One problem with unionizing teachers is that so much goes by seniority and tenure. When my wife taught in top flight private prep schools, all the teachers were on one year contracts. There simply weren't (and couldn't be) burnouts or people hired in a pinch when there was a vacancy on short notice but who weren't truly excellent teachers. That simply isn't the case in, say, Chicago public schools. The cost per pupil is astronomical and getting rid of a bad teacher is nigh on impossible. If there were school choice and flexibility with staffing, superintendents would have all kinds of incentive to make sure the best teachers were happy and the worst teachers were gone.