Author Topic: Coronavirus news  (Read 399022 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1650 on: May 21, 2020, 08:50:10 PM »
The time will come for you, too, Pastor Bohler, when you are no longer activated in your calling. You will find it interesting, and at times, bittersweet. What you will not find in retirement, if you cherish your calling, is that  people making fun of it is amusing.

As I have written here before, I was in the social service field for a number of years before entering seminary.  But I do not threaten to go to someone's house to investigate whether or not they are abusing their child.  What I do NOT find amusing in my current calling is someone threatening to go to a worship service to tattle, even if it is only a retired journalist.  As for me making fun of you, remember, it is only whimsey.

James J Eivan

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1651 on: May 21, 2020, 09:03:35 PM »
BTW, One might wonder whether the Catholics and the LCMS are using this tragic situation to make some "points" about the alleged "threats" to religion they see taking place or taking a chance to get in some swipes at a liberal governor or to position themselves on what they see as the "right" side of a political dust-up.
What role did the Beckett people have in bringing the LCMS into this particular strategy? <emphasis added>
We have many many examples of how churches are serving their people during the current situation that do not require violating civil standards for safety.

Better get out the battered old fedora with the "Press" tag stuck in the band, Scoop, and find out.  The world needs to know.  And only you can get to the bottom of it.  Just when you think you were out, they pull you back in again!  To to the Scoop-mobile!
Others may speculate that a pro infant murdering governor is engaging in political pay back for these two unwavering pro life advocating church bodies


Apparently from the emphasized comment, the Catholics are voluntarily involved in this particular strategy but it took Beckett to bring the LCMS into this strategy.  What inside information led to this conclusion or is this an indication of the differing respect held for these two church bodies?


Finally, if it genuinely felt that these churches are violating civil standards for safety, no one is encouraged and/or required to attend.




pastorg1@aol.com

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1652 on: May 21, 2020, 09:55:15 PM »
Some news: Theo Kieth Fox 9-

The Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis will allow churches to resume Mass on May 26. The Minnesota North and South Districts of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod set a resumption date of May 31.

Peter (Just do it) Garrison
Pete Garrison, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1653 on: May 21, 2020, 10:02:01 PM »
Pastor Bohler:
As I have written here before, I was in the social service field for a number of years before entering seminary.  But I do not threaten to go to someone's house to investigate whether or not they are abusing their child. 
Me:
Oh? Well in New Jersey, if there is a Credible report of child abuse, a member of the division for youth and family services will most certainly go to that child’s Home and question the parents.

Pastor Bohler:
What I do NOT find amusing in my current calling is someone threatening to go to a worship service to tattle, even if it is only a retired journalist.  As for me making fun of you, remember, it is only whimsey.
Me:
As always, Pastor Bohler, your gentle, kind, caring and wise Spirit, and your understanding of others always shows through in your postings here.
But we digress.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1654 on: May 21, 2020, 10:11:55 PM »
Some news: Theo Kieth Fox 9-

The Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis will allow churches to resume Mass on May 26. The Minnesota North and South Districts of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod set a resumption date of May 31.

Peter (Just do it) Garrison

If that date is good enough for shopping malls and casinos--which it is, according to the Governor--it should be good enough for churches.

But according to the Governor it is not.

A similar discriminatory, harsher standard had been applied against churches in North Carolina but that was overturned earlier this week by the US Third Circuit.

Governor Walz should aniticipate similar results.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1655 on: May 21, 2020, 10:25:42 PM »
Now some models from researchers at Columbia University show that deaths could have been prevented with an earlier, more widespread shutdown. So is anyone worried that a knee-jerk boom-boom over "religious freedom" and a fervor to "have church" rather than let the evil state (which I guess in this case is not a gift of God) tell us what to do might actually lead to more deaths? I am.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1656 on: May 21, 2020, 10:34:16 PM »
Now some models from researchers at Columbia University show that deaths could have been prevented with an earlier, more widespread shutdown. So is anyone worried that a knee-jerk boom-boom over "religious freedom" and a fervor to "have church" rather than let the evil state (which I guess in this case is not a gift of God) tell us what to do might actually lead to more deaths? I am.

In the northeast US (New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachuesetts, Pennsylvania) deaths could have been prevented by NOT forcing nursing homes and extended care facilities to receive infected patients discharged from hospitals, and, in some states, prohibiting those facilities from doing COVID testing as a condition of admittance.

Moreover, in at least one state the health agency essentially stopped doing on-site inspection of licenesed facilities.

Result?   69 % of all COVID 19 deaths in Pennsylvania have occurred in nursing homes or long term care facilities.

But some 21st centuries Neroes would rather blame the Christians....
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

James_Gale

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1657 on: May 21, 2020, 10:47:03 PM »
Now some models from researchers at Columbia University show that deaths could have been prevented with an earlier, more widespread shutdown. So is anyone worried that a knee-jerk boom-boom over "religious freedom" and a fervor to "have church" rather than let the evil state (which I guess in this case is not a gift of God) tell us what to do might actually lead to more deaths? I am.


First, any model from Columbia joins oodles of other models.  You can find one to show just about anything you'd like.  I'm not sure that any of the models has held up well to scrutiny.


Second, defending constitutional rights is hardly "knee jerk."  Getting the government to respect our unalienable rights has been a hard battle all along.  We should be very reluctant to give ground to the government, even in the face of a 9/11-like attach or a pandemic.


But third, I think that churches should prayerfully consider when to resume live worship and what that worship will look like.  How many people will attend?  How much distance will there be between them?  Will there be singing, which apparently is a tragically effective way of spreading germs?  In thinking all this trough, at least in high-infection areas, might be well served in waiting a bit longer to hold live services, to change the way that services are held, or both.  But these decisions are best left to the people.

James J Eivan

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1658 on: May 21, 2020, 11:13:46 PM »
In the northeast US (New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachuesetts, Pennsylvania) deaths could have been prevented by NOT forcing nursing homes and extended care facilities to receive infected patients discharged from hospitals, and, in some states, prohibiting those facilities from doing COVID testing as a condition of admittance.

Moreover, in at least one state the health agency essentially stopped doing on-site inspection of licenesed facilities.

Result?   69 % of all COVID 19 deaths in Pennsylvania have occurred in nursing homes or long term care facilities.

But some 21st centuries Neroes would rather blame the Christians....
... Wondering where the underlined factual NY Times article has been posted to the forum. Some NY Times readers will invent reasons to blame President Trump.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1659 on: May 21, 2020, 11:36:36 PM »
There is scant actual evidence that any of the measures we're taking really work. First the experts say masks aren't necessary. Then they say they're critical. Then they say they don't really do anything. Then they say they might do something. First they say the virus can live on hard surfaces for days. Then they say not so much. The social distance of six feet is entirely arbitrary with no actual studies backing it up as a particularly effective distance. It is lack trying to keep track of whether eggs are good for you; the expert opinion changes more than the weather. Yet anytime anyone expresses skepticism about the latest decree they're treated as though they reject science. The fact is, learning via experimentation is precisely what makes them skeptical of the infallibility of the latest decree. And anti-scientific, blind faith in experts is what makes other people accept the latest decree uncritically even when they know full well that the latest decree contradicts the previous decree that they also accepted uncritically.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1660 on: May 22, 2020, 12:00:42 AM »
Pastor Speckhard,

This is one of the decrees which we, as people of faith, must accept uncritically:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqhkiCNB9JA

"Science" would like us to believe otherwise.
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

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Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

James J Eivan

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1661 on: May 22, 2020, 12:24:26 AM »

Now some models from researchers at Columbia University show that deaths could have been prevented with an earlier, more widespread shutdown. So is anyone worried that a knee-jerk boom-boom over "religious freedom" and a fervor to "have church" rather than let the evil state (which I guess in this case is not a gift of God) tell us what to do might actually lead to more deaths? I am.

I guess Rev Bohler is needlessly concerned about Rev Austin occupying pew space in a LCMS sanctuary for journalistic reasons any time soon.


Apparently he has more faith in secular businesses ability to (gasp) make money than churches motivated by the love of Christ.

Charles Austin

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1662 on: May 22, 2020, 03:44:54 AM »
Never mind whether you believe the science, Peter, but focus on the visible situation. Your services, I believe, take precautions because of the virus. You did not just Say: “we will have services, the state cannot stop us.” You did not pit the church against any other element of society.
I have said this before. If a church building is unsafe, the state can say you may not use it for a public gathering. You must have lighted exit signs and there may be limits on numbers. These matters of public safety are valid, even if one does not accept the reasons for them.
I see parallels today. We are subject to restrictions because of the public health concerns. The restrictions are not an attack on religion or expression of faith. But I fear that some, for shadowy reasons, want to say they are.
The dark side scenario:
Ok, Minnesota churches, open up. Hold services. Get hundreds of people together singing, hugging, eating close together in small spaces. It’s your “constitutional right.”
The let’s trace how many get sick or die because you did that. How many people took infections home to elderly parents to neighbors?

« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 03:49:07 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

James_Gale

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1663 on: May 22, 2020, 08:24:17 AM »
Never mind whether you believe the science, Peter, but focus on the visible situation. Your services, I believe, take precautions because of the virus. You did not just Say: “we will have services, the state cannot stop us.” You did not pit the church against any other element of society.
I have said this before. If a church building is unsafe, the state can say you may not use it for a public gathering. You must have lighted exit signs and there may be limits on numbers. These matters of public safety are valid, even if one does not accept the reasons for them.
I see parallels today. We are subject to restrictions because of the public health concerns. The restrictions are not an attack on religion or expression of faith. But I fear that some, for shadowy reasons, want to say they are.
The dark side scenario:
Ok, Minnesota churches, open up. Hold services. Get hundreds of people together singing, hugging, eating close together in small spaces. It’s your “constitutional right.”
The let’s trace how many get sick or die because you did that. How many people took infections home to elderly parents to neighbors?


I don't understand your post.  Are you suggesting that those arguing a Constitutional right for churches to hold religious services are motivated by a "shadowy reason," which is to intentionally infect and kill people?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Coronavirus news
« Reply #1664 on: May 22, 2020, 08:30:43 AM »
Never mind whether you believe the science, Peter, but focus on the visible situation. Your services, I believe, take precautions because of the virus. You did not just Say: “we will have services, the state cannot stop us.” You did not pit the church against any other element of society.
I have said this before. If a church building is unsafe, the state can say you may not use it for a public gathering. You must have lighted exit signs and there may be limits on numbers. These matters of public safety are valid, even if one does not accept the reasons for them.
I see parallels today. We are subject to restrictions because of the public health concerns. The restrictions are not an attack on religion or expression of faith. But I fear that some, for shadowy reasons, want to say they are.
The dark side scenario:
Ok, Minnesota churches, open up. Hold services. Get hundreds of people together singing, hugging, eating close together in small spaces. It’s your “constitutional right.”
The let’s trace how many get sick or die because you did that. How many people took infections home to elderly parents to neighbors?
I don't think the Catholic and LCMS churches in Minnesota are saying they are going to open without precautions. They're saying that the state cannot tell them not to open even with precautions when other groups are able to. That is, they're aren't going to acknowledge a state order that treats church as less essential than gambling. In a way, they demand the separation of anti-church and state.