Author Topic: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle  (Read 3260 times)

Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #135 on: February 23, 2021, 06:11:05 AM »
If remote conventions become normal, were owning up to the fact that fellowship and informal talk/meetings are not an important part of conventions.

Oh, no.  When the weather is fine, we're going to push for the Lutheran Fair.  No doubt about that.  In pandemia, remote.  In Elysian fields, we grill and vote.

Dave Benke

Who provides the beer?    :D

Peace, JOHN

Kansas City Bier Co of course. The founder and majority owner is Steve Holle, a member of my congregation. He is faithful in worship (former elder, serves on our endowment committee, several Lutheran mission boards).

And KC Bier is Missouri's largest craft brewer and their beer is sold in all of Kansas and half of Missouri. All of their grains are imported from Germany. The tables in their tasting room are too.

Their newest beer is Carolator, a pale dopplebock that is patterned after the -ator beers of the Paulaner monks of the 1500s. Their Salvator was a fortified Lenten beer to help the monks during their fasting.

Carolator is tremendous and has a good story. Carolator is named in honor of Carol Crawford, Steve's big sister. She was the director of our preschool and she died of a sudden cardiac event on July 4th, 2020. She was a forceful presence because of her love, kindness, faith, devotion. Her love was her family, her church, and Developing Potential Inc, an organization that serves her son Mike so well. Mike was born with profound delays but is a joy to converse with and he enjoys back rubs and giving hugs and wearing his Patrick Mahomes tee shirt.

That's a long answer to say that we have an in-house supplier.

My favorites are: Carolator, Der Bauer, and Helles.

Jeremy

John_Hannah

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #136 on: February 23, 2021, 06:52:44 AM »
If remote conventions become normal, were owning up to the fact that fellowship and informal talk/meetings are not an important part of conventions.

Oh, no.  When the weather is fine, we're going to push for the Lutheran Fair.  No doubt about that.  In pandemia, remote.  In Elysian fields, we grill and vote.

Dave Benke

Who provides the beer?    :D

Peace, JOHN

Kansas City Bier Co of course. The founder and majority owner is Steve Holle, a member of my congregation. He is faithful in worship (former elder, serves on our endowment committee, several Lutheran mission boards).

And KC Bier is Missouri's largest craft brewer and their beer is sold in all of Kansas and half of Missouri. All of their grains are imported from Germany. The tables in their tasting room are too.

Their newest beer is Carolator, a pale dopplebock that is patterned after the -ator beers of the Paulaner monks of the 1500s. Their Salvator was a fortified Lenten beer to help the monks during their fasting.

Carolator is tremendous and has a good story. Carolator is named in honor of Carol Crawford, Steve's big sister. She was the director of our preschool and she died of a sudden cardiac event on July 4th, 2020. She was a forceful presence because of her love, kindness, faith, devotion. Her love was her family, her church, and Developing Potential Inc, an organization that serves her son Mike so well. Mike was born with profound delays but is a joy to converse with and he enjoys back rubs and giving hugs and wearing his Patrick Mahomes tee shirt.

That's a long answer to say that we have an in-house supplier.

My favorites are: Carolator, Der Bauer, and Helles.

Jeremy

Interesting, Jeremy. Does Steve give his pastor a discount?
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

D. Engebretson

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #137 on: February 23, 2021, 07:25:41 AM »
A friend of mine was the pastoral delegate from our community to the nation via de cristo conference last summer.  They did it remotely and it was something of a disaster.  People would make a motion and then other folks would seek to amend the motion, which of course requires agreement with the both the mover and the second, and nobody had planned how to deal with such things.  There is no good substitute for in-person conferences if anything important and/or subject to disagreement comes up.  IMO better to forego a conference than to try to do it over the internet.

I would agree with you.  I had never really participated in Zoom meetings prior to the pandemic.  It was novel, at first, but over time you realize what limits they have with regard to real discussion.  There is something very different about the interchange of in-person exchanges that cannot be duplicated on a remote platform. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #138 on: February 23, 2021, 08:05:47 AM »
If remote conventions become normal, were owning up to the fact that fellowship and informal talk/meetings are not an important part of conventions.

Oh, no.  When the weather is fine, we're going to push for the Lutheran Fair.  No doubt about that.  In pandemia, remote.  In Elysian fields, we grill and vote.

Dave Benke

Who provides the beer?    :D

Peace, JOHN

Kansas City Bier Co of course. The founder and majority owner is Steve Holle, a member of my congregation. He is faithful in worship (former elder, serves on our endowment committee, several Lutheran mission boards).

And KC Bier is Missouri's largest craft brewer and their beer is sold in all of Kansas and half of Missouri. All of their grains are imported from Germany. The tables in their tasting room are too.

Their newest beer is Carolator, a pale dopplebock that is patterned after the -ator beers of the Paulaner monks of the 1500s. Their Salvator was a fortified Lenten beer to help the monks during their fasting.

Carolator is tremendous and has a good story. Carolator is named in honor of Carol Crawford, Steve's big sister. She was the director of our preschool and she died of a sudden cardiac event on July 4th, 2020. She was a forceful presence because of her love, kindness, faith, devotion. Her love was her family, her church, and Developing Potential Inc, an organization that serves her son Mike so well. Mike was born with profound delays but is a joy to converse with and he enjoys back rubs and giving hugs and wearing his Patrick Mahomes tee shirt.

That's a long answer to say that we have an in-house supplier.

My favorites are: Carolator, Der Bauer, and Helles.

Jeremy

Interesting, Jeremy. Does Steve give his pastor a discount?

He does. I even try to pay but he doesn't let me. So I sometimes take the kids to the biergarten when he's not there so I can make it up to him. But periodically he'll leave a 12 pack in my office. He'll also let me know when they have an excessive amount of "employee beer" (the very first bottles of a product that they don't sell to the public) and I'm allowed to get some.

My job's not too bad.

Jeremy

Jeremy_Loesch

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #139 on: February 23, 2021, 08:29:03 AM »

Dave Benke

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #140 on: February 23, 2021, 08:53:06 AM »
A friend of mine was the pastoral delegate from our community to the nation via de cristo conference last summer.  They did it remotely and it was something of a disaster.  People would make a motion and then other folks would seek to amend the motion, which of course requires agreement with the both the mover and the second, and nobody had planned how to deal with such things.  There is no good substitute for in-person conferences if anything important and/or subject to disagreement comes up.  IMO better to forego a conference than to try to do it over the internet.

I would agree with you.  I had never really participated in Zoom meetings prior to the pandemic.  It was novel, at first, but over time you realize what limits they have with regard to real discussion.  There is something very different about the interchange of in-person exchanges that cannot be duplicated on a remote platform.

I also agree.  Try the Zoom Lord's Prayer in unison.  No thank you.  The obvious better bet is in-person.  Where I've been Zooming and somebody (one time it was somebody who had helped invent the Zoom platform) really knows how to use the system, it can be workable, because really it's a built in Robert's Rules of Order machine - "No, you can't talk now, you're third in line, and you won't be allowed to interrupt, see the chat feature for instructions," etc.  It's Parliamentarian in a Box in that sense.  At the same time, the flow of interpersonal interaction and the "sense of the room" is pretty much out the window. 

The whole pandemic-world/climate-change-world reality, however, is that stuff happens, and then Texas has no water or heat, or variant 7 shows up without fanfare in Nebraska, and the polar bears are eating cacti in Arizona until the wildfires get them, and we won't be getting together any time soon.  So tech upgrades may be an answer - unsatisfactory, but an answer.

Dave Benke

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Dan Fienen

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #142 on: February 23, 2021, 03:12:01 PM »
Remember the good old days when people were concerned that our young people were spending too much of their lives on line and having enough actual interpersonal in person interactions?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Richard Johnson

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #143 on: Yesterday at 09:13:23 AM »
A friend of mine was the pastoral delegate from our community to the nation via de cristo conference last summer.  They did it remotely and it was something of a disaster.  People would make a motion and then other folks would seek to amend the motion, which of course requires agreement with the both the mover and the second, and nobody had planned how to deal with such things.  There is no good substitute for in-person conferences if anything important and/or subject to disagreement comes up.  IMO better to forego a conference than to try to do it over the internet.

I would agree with you.  I had never really participated in Zoom meetings prior to the pandemic.  It was novel, at first, but over time you realize what limits they have with regard to real discussion.  There is something very different about the interchange of in-person exchanges that cannot be duplicated on a remote platform.

I don't disagree. But on the other hand, we have had for a few years a weekly men's group meeting at a local restaurant for breakfast and study. Most of the guys agree that moving to Zoom has deepened the group: fewer distractions, easier to hear one another, brought in some people for whom an early breakfast wasn't possible, etc. The conversation is more focused, and on a much deeper level, and people are more regular in attendance. So there's always another perspective.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

D. Engebretson

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #144 on: Yesterday at 09:27:18 AM »
A friend of mine was the pastoral delegate from our community to the nation via de cristo conference last summer.  They did it remotely and it was something of a disaster.  People would make a motion and then other folks would seek to amend the motion, which of course requires agreement with the both the mover and the second, and nobody had planned how to deal with such things.  There is no good substitute for in-person conferences if anything important and/or subject to disagreement comes up.  IMO better to forego a conference than to try to do it over the internet.

I would agree with you.  I had never really participated in Zoom meetings prior to the pandemic.  It was novel, at first, but over time you realize what limits they have with regard to real discussion.  There is something very different about the interchange of in-person exchanges that cannot be duplicated on a remote platform.

I don't disagree. But on the other hand, we have had for a few years a weekly men's group meeting at a local restaurant for breakfast and study. Most of the guys agree that moving to Zoom has deepened the group: fewer distractions, easier to hear one another, brought in some people for whom an early breakfast wasn't possible, etc. The conversation is more focused, and on a much deeper level, and people are more regular in attendance. So there's always another perspective.

And I wouldn't disagree with that either.  Like many pastors I have found advantages using the technology at hand.  It has given us another tool to allow ministry to continue when sickness, disability, or inclement weather prevents people from regular activities and in-person attendance.  I will keep on using these tools well after the worst of the pandemic has passed by. Balance.  For some remote works.  For others it's not enough.  Just like education itself.  A lot of students slogged though this past year with remote.  But reports are now indicating that for everyone it was not the perfect solution, or even an adequate one. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

jebutler

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #145 on: Today at 10:26:37 AM »
If remote conventions become normal, were owning up to the fact that fellowship and informal talk/meetings are not an important part of conventions.

Oh, no.  When the weather is fine, we're going to push for the Lutheran Fair.  No doubt about that.  In pandemia, remote.  In Elysian fields, we grill and vote.

Dave Benke

Who provides the beer?    :D

Peace, JOHN

Kansas City Bier Co of course. The founder and majority owner is Steve Holle, a member of my congregation. He is faithful in worship (former elder, serves on our endowment committee, several Lutheran mission boards).

And KC Bier is Missouri's largest craft brewer and their beer is sold in all of Kansas and half of Missouri. All of their grains are imported from Germany. The tables in their tasting room are too.

Their newest beer is Carolator, a pale dopplebock that is patterned after the -ator beers of the Paulaner monks of the 1500s. Their Salvator was a fortified Lenten beer to help the monks during their fasting.

Carolator is tremendous and has a good story. Carolator is named in honor of Carol Crawford, Steve's big sister. She was the director of our preschool and she died of a sudden cardiac event on July 4th, 2020. She was a forceful presence because of her love, kindness, faith, devotion. Her love was her family, her church, and Developing Potential Inc, an organization that serves her son Mike so well. Mike was born with profound delays but is a joy to converse with and he enjoys back rubs and giving hugs and wearing his Patrick Mahomes tee shirt.

That's a long answer to say that we have an in-house supplier.

My favorites are: Carolator, Der Bauer, and Helles.

Jeremy

Interesting, Jeremy. Does Steve give his pastor a discount?

He does. I even try to pay but he doesn't let me. So I sometimes take the kids to the biergarten when he's not there so I can make it up to him. But periodically he'll leave a 12 pack in my office. He'll also let me know when they have an excessive amount of "employee beer" (the very first bottles of a product that they don't sell to the public) and I'm allowed to get some.

My job's not too bad.

Jeremy

I had some KC Bier when I was home last September. First time I'd tried any (I'm a huge fan of Boulevard also KC brewed). Very good beer. Hope to visit and get a tour next time I'm in KC.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

jebutler

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #146 on: Today at 10:29:38 AM »

Ask a pastor with a big staff and/or faculty what a minimum wage of $15 and hour will effect the congregational finances.

You want to know why you're a pariah? Because you make stupid statements like this.

Seriously, this statement makes it sound like smaller parishes aren't affect by these huge hikes. We're getting hit hard by them in our preschool. Just to make it more fun, we had to expand our staff in order to accommodate the new COVID rules put in place by Massachusetts. Expanded staff + increase in pay = headaches.

Near me, there's a small church that only has two staff beside the pastor: part-time secretary and janitor. According to your statement, they haven't been affected by the increased minimum wage in Massachusetts nor the increased health care costs for their pastor due to laws imposed by the Commonwealth. Nope, those costs are only born by churches with "a big staff and/or faculty." Just ask the pastor of a small church how easy it is to deal with the budget. Apparently, you think they're all smiling and happy, probably getting overpaid.

This stuff is hard for all of us, not just the churches with "a big staff and/or faculty."

I made the above comment on Saturday.

I apologize to the board for the snarky way I commented on Tim's post. While I stand by the substance of my comment, my attitude was all wrong. I usually rewrite my comments and leave the snark out, but I didn't that time. I am truly sorry for my offensive attitude. I appreciate Dave Benke for calling me out on this (however mildly!). I'll try to do better in the future.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

PrTim15

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #147 on: Today at 01:07:34 PM »
God be with you, I appreciate you clear thinking and passion in your comment. My ego gets the best of me...

Dave Benke

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Re: 90% (!) Vote to Delay LCMS Convention Cycle
« Reply #148 on: Today at 01:40:36 PM »
With regard to the $15 per hour rate of pay, we've had that here for awhile already.  Companies/owners get around the impact by downsizing the hours, or having two people to reduce the fringe bennies, or passing it on to the customer with higher rates of whatever is being marketed, including tuition for schools.  Or they change the business model to a more private/public partnership for a different influx of funds.  Which is what we had to do.  My mantra used to be to our Lutheran schools, "collaborate or die."  At this time, most of them failed to collaborate and are now dead.  But - the congregations with a decent facility have beaucoup income from charter and city schools renting at a nice rate of pay per square foot.  They then have to refocus the mission away from the school as the primary avenue of outreach to something else.

In high union locales, like NYC, with huge service industry and fire/police/teachers unions, the unions negotiate for their folks and get that percentage increase nugget, and then the other/little guys hope some of that result falls to them.  Which has happened here in universal pre-kindergarten.  Our complaint was that although our staffs would rather work in our setting, the differential between what they could make at a unionized locale was so great that we were losing our competitive edge (which is quality of care).  So we got a differential amount called a Teacher Incentive Grant to offset to some degree that difference in compensation.  But the unionized public education centers get paid way more.  In Nassau County the average comp for a teacher is over $125000.  Plus bennies.  I don't know about Orange County, but there must be some heavy hitters there as well in terms of compensation.

An issue, it seems to me, is the "science of compliance" nature of the whole educational system at the far end, which is certification.  So you're not getting certified in this state unless and until you have a terminal degree, are on the way to an advanced degree, and have passed several additional certification tests, and renew them regularly. That's for Pre-School.  So the teacher is paying educational institutions to become and remain a teacher.  Institutionally, three agencies - State and City Education and Dept. of Health, give us the once-over on a very regular basis.  Plus building codes and endless inspections.  To open a pre-packaged lunch, our site has to qualify as a restaurant for a special permit.  Count the cost in advance, and keep the mission at the front, and it can be done. 

And that's why we voted in favor of delaying the convention cycle.

Dave Benke