Author Topic: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)  (Read 4532 times)

John_Hannah

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Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« on: February 13, 2020, 02:38:40 PM »
Pope Francis has declined to approve married priests and women deacons (deaconesses?) for the Amazon. Here is the Times report:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/world/europe/pope-married-priests.html

Comments?

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2020, 03:07:10 PM »
And someday, a bishop down there, desperate for priests, will go ahead and do it on his own.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

Dave Likeness

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2020, 03:18:46 PM »
Here is some historical perspective on the Roman Catholic Church  in U.S.A.

In 1965......they had 36,700 active priests
In 2002......they had 15,000 active priests

In 1965......they had a seminary enrollment of 49,000
In 2002......they had a seminary enrollment of   3,500

In 1965.....they had a membership of 47 million
In 2002.....they had a membership of 64 million

Bottom Line:  The RCC membership is growing, yet the priesthood
numbers are declining.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 03:40:34 PM »
And someday, a bishop down there, desperate for priests, will go ahead and do it on his own.

Very likely. So, do you approve of people who disobey those whose their church body has placed in authority and do what they think is correct anyway? Is your answer different if it is the ELCA or other church bodies?


The Roman Catholic Church has decided that ultimately it is the Pope who decides these things and relies on bishops and priests to enforce what he has decided and determined. That is their way of running the church. Just is in the ELCA a vote at the CWA is finally determinative for policy and practice. In the ELCA you call upon all who minister in the ELCA to respect the decisions made in the way that the ELCA has decided to make such decisions. Is it different for the RCC? Even though it is constituted as a hierarchical church, you nonetheless seem to feel that the real church is not what they have said it is but it should be what those at a lower level in the hierarchy, local bishops or the people in pew, decide it should be, especially if you like their ideas better.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 03:45:33 PM »
And someday, a bishop down there, desperate for priests, will go ahead and do it on his own.

...and then receive the appropriate discipline which most surely will include deposing from the episcopal office, suspension of priestly faculties, and possibly excommunciation.

Remember Archbishop Lefebre?
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

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Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 03:54:50 PM »
No, Pastor Fienen, I do not think I approve. But I do believe it will happen.
And yes, I remember archbishop LeFevre very well.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

David Garner

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 04:00:28 PM »
And someday, a bishop down there, desperate for priests, will go ahead and do it on his own.

...and then receive the appropriate discipline which most surely will include deposing from the episcopal office, suspension of priestly faculties, and possibly excommunciation.

Remember Archbishop Lefebre?

The requirement for reception seems to always be missing in the minds of those who think because a priest or bishop does something, that means "the Church" did it.  Priests and bishops and even popes have done lots of things in history that were not received by the Church. 

Ecclesiology, as ever, remains our biggest divide.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 04:18:33 PM »
And basing the church solely on ecclesiology may be our biggest heresy.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

David Garner

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 04:42:48 PM »
Um, ecclesiology is precisely the study of what the Church is and how it is structured and governed.  So this is like saying "basing music solely on arranging notes in pre-determined patterns of tone and meter is our biggest error."
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2020, 04:56:05 PM »
And if you say those notes have to sound baroque, or rap or 1950s Rock ‘n Roll, or they are not “music”, what about that?
If a Roman Catholic bishop or a group of Roman Catholic bishops in those areas of the world decide that they have deacons or catechists or leaders in the church who are qualified, and if they ordain those people even though they be married, and if they celebrate mass and minister to their parishes, the “Church”  is there, even though Roman Catholic ecclesiology may be somehow offended.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

David Garner

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2020, 04:57:44 PM »
And if you say those notes have to sound baroque, or rap or 1950s Rock ‘n Roll, or they are not “music”, what about that?
If a Roman Catholic bishop or a group of Roman Catholic bishops in those areas of the world decide that they have deacons or catechists or leaders in the church who are qualified, and if they ordain those people even though they be married, and if they celebrate mass and minister to their parishes, the “Church”  is there, even though Roman Catholic ecclesiology may be somehow offended.

K.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2020, 06:00:51 PM »
And if you say those notes have to sound baroque, or rap or 1950s Rock ‘n Roll, or they are not “music”, what about that?
If a Roman Catholic bishop or a group of Roman Catholic bishops in those areas of the world decide that they have deacons or catechists or leaders in the church who are qualified, and if they ordain those people even though they be married, and if they celebrate mass and minister to their parishes, the “Church”  is there, even though Roman Catholic ecclesiology may be somehow offended.

Since we're Lutherans we can certainly argue that "the Church" would be there (presuming, of course, what we define as the marks of the Church remain in some form).  But it wouldn't be the Roman Catholic Church that is there.  It would be something like the Brazilian National Catholic Church (aka the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church).  From whom our old friend Archbishop Irl Gladfelter and his church body received apostolic succession.

Pax, Steven+
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Charles Austin

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2020, 06:10:30 PM »
Can we fix the title of this thread?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Interesting things on the new administration and religion in the 1/24 newspapers. Douthat column, e.g. Posted link here, but it was deleted.

John_Hannah

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2020, 08:54:09 PM »
Can we fix the title of this thread?

To? _________________?
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Matt Hummel

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Re: Pope Francis (Celebacy & Deacons)
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2020, 08:56:21 PM »
Can we fix the title of this thread?

To? _________________?

Probably Celibacy & Deacons...
Matt Hummel


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