Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 351836 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4530 on: November 07, 2020, 12:26:33 PM »
I do not believe I have ever complained that the moderators have been unfair to me. Some posters, yes, but not the moderators.
Would you like me to share publicly the many complaints youíve sent to me over the years about unfair moderating? Or maybe just retract that statement? I assure you it is provably false.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4531 on: November 07, 2020, 12:28:40 PM »
I find it interesting that Democrats have spent the last 4 years loudly proclaiming that because the 2016 election was so close, Trump did not have a mandate. Now in another very close election, Biden is claiming a mandate. Now both Trump and Biden by being legally elected have similar mandates to function as chief executives of this nation. But as has been pointed out, if Biden wants to be not the president of the Democrats but the American President, that we not have Red states and Blue states but American states, his mandate is not to run roughshod over those who did not vote for him. One does not really unify the nation by dismissing those who did not vote for Biden as racist idiots as some voices from the left are doing.


The major differences between 2016 and 2020 is Trump did not win the popular vote, Biden did. Biden won a majority (more than 50%) of the votes cast. In 2016, Trump did not. (Neither did Clinton.)
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4532 on: November 07, 2020, 12:35:18 PM »
Perhaps the real take away from the 2016 and 2020 election is to not take the polls so seriously. For all the efforts that have gone into making polling more of an exact science, it is not. The margin of error in polling is not just a matter of statistical analysis of the polling data and ensuring a broad enough and random enough sampling.  Polling relies on those polled giving truthful answers. It is not unlikely that in a highly charged atmosphere such as surrounded these elections, when to support or vote for one candidate has been widely condemned as being not only unwise, but evil and despicable, for people who actually intend to vote for him to not wish to say so publicly, or even to a pollster. Polls are are also only as good as the way the questions for the polls are crafted. Bias, even unconscious bias can affect the outcome and lower the final accuracy.


I am not accusing the pollsters of lying or trying to manipulate the election. I'm just saying that polls are inherently more unreliable than has often been thought and probably cannot be made much more accurate. In the end, there is only one poll that really counts, the one taken by the ballot box, and predicting that outcome will inevitably be iffy.


In proper scientific surveys, there are safeguards against lying. One is to divide the survey questions into two halves - essentially taking two surveys simultaneously. The results of the two halves are compared. If there's major discrepancy, there was lying. Another way, PREPARE/ENRICH does it in their survey, is to ask essentially the same question in a different way, such as have a "disagree" answer for one question, and the other similar question requires an "agree" answer. By comparing a number of these, they can score the honesty or reliability of the answers.


There are many shortcomings in the political polling that takes place so that they really aren't scientific surveys.

"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4533 on: November 07, 2020, 12:41:41 PM »
James, sometimes I think you look for reasons to be offended. Also, you don't need to insert yourself into every situation. If Altheist was offended, he can fight his own battles. He's been on this board a long time; he knows what to do.

Pr. Johnson saw my question and he answered it. The man knows his history. Most likely, he didn't see Aletheist's response, much less "misappropriated" it. Heck, I didn't see Aletheist's response. Had I done so, I would have written a note of thanks to him as well.

Please remember the 8th Commandment and the need to "explain everything in the kindest way." You need to delete your post and apologize for making your accusation.


But then you are not aware of the rest of the story ... the prejudicial censoring censoring of some members posts... not necessarily mine ... while the garbage of others remains ... becomes intolerable at times.

Perhaps you have missed Rev Johnsonís snippy comments in the past ... had I done as he did, ... well guess you know the rest ... yes, there is a great amount of eighth commandment violation ... especially here, pointing out a double post seems to pale in comparison ... if indeed stating the truth is a violation of the eighth commandment ... then some may rarely be guilty of such violations.


To the boldface: you might not be aware of this: Rev. Dr. Johnson has a Ph.D. in history, and has taught it at the seminary level.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4534 on: November 07, 2020, 12:47:31 PM »
Yes, Peter, I retract that statement. Because I forgot to put the word, "publicly," in it. I do that now. I believe that you have let stands things said about Pastor Stoffregen and I that you could be expected to delete if we said the same about someone else.
But we digress. Neither Brian nor I are that important.
The aftermath of the election requires all - that is, all - to play a role in reconciliation; and that includes the One who lost the election. Al Gore did, even though many of his supporters were convinced he had won.
If the president and his minions go on this way, healing will be harder.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4535 on: November 07, 2020, 01:04:09 PM »
For many of us "action on COVID, the economy, on climate change, and systemic racism" is not a Democratic issue, but a global one. Until specific actions are presented and congress can back (or deny) them; I think actions on these issues is a global necessity for the future of life on this planet.
Each of these issues need to be addressed whoever occupies the White House, the current occupant or the presumptive future occupant. (Perhaps I will take a leaf from Pr. Austin's playbook and start calling the one who will be president in January the White House Occupant.) The difficulty is that there is a wide range of responses possible. Extremes abound.


COVID - Responses range from ignoring it and hoping that a vaccine will make it go away to shutting down the country and let the economic fallout fall where it will. A balanced approach would be welcome that encourages or mandates reasonable precautions, face masks for example for those without a counter indicating medical condition, reasonable limits on gatherings, etc.


The Economy - The economy does need some regulation to curb the excesses of the powerful and wealthy, but an economy micromanaged by the government rarely ends up benefitting the people. The socialistic schemes of the far left (and we have heard such) invite extreme reactions.


Climate Change - Progress has been made and is continuing to be made, just not as fast as some would like. One joke that I have heard is about California pushing for all electric vehicles while also having rolling blackouts and brownouts that would stop the electric cars. Should a Biden win translate into an rapid end to the use of fossil fuels and a mandate that in the next few years every home must be retrofitted to be carbon neutral (meaning everybody will need to rebuild their homes)? Can we not work towards a more ecologically friendly society, faster perhaps than some oil company would like but also not as fast as some others who don't care how much it will make people's lives deteriorate or how much it would cost would like? There is much room to work out reasonable solutions between the two extremes.


Systemic Racism - Racism still exists in the U.S. We need to continue to work to remove racism from American society, government, and legal system. We need to do much work to ameliorate the results of past racism, but can we do that without automatically assuming that every white person is a racist unless they can prove that they aren't racist? Can we work toward that without canonizing identity politics or branding any Black Republican as a racial traitor? Can we work to correct racism without tearing down America and replacing it with some leftist utopia?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4536 on: November 07, 2020, 01:43:32 PM »
Yes, Peter, I retract that statement. Because I forgot to put the word, "publicly," in it. I do that now. I believe that you have let stands things said about Pastor Stoffregen and I that you could be expected to delete if we said the same about someone else.
But we digress. Neither Brian nor I are that important.
The aftermath of the election requires all - that is, all - to play a role in reconciliation; and that includes the One who lost the election. Al Gore did, even though many of his supporters were convinced he had won.
If the president and his minions go on this way, healing will be harder.
Imagine tomorrow the SCOTUS invalidates the PA vote and Trump wins AZ and it turns out in a week that Trump won after all. Not going to happen, I know, but just suppose. Would you be willing to follow your own advice? Or, to look at it differently, if conservatives treat Biden the way you personally looked at the Trump presidency, would you think they were helping or hindering the cause of unity?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 02:05:13 PM by peter_speckhard »

D. Engebretson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4537 on: November 07, 2020, 01:55:27 PM »
Last night Biden took to the podium to make a statement, coming short of claiming victory, but noting that their path to the White House appears certain.  But what concerns me was that in his statement he claimed that in this anticipated victory, which we all know is by razor thing margins in battle ground states, is a "mandate for action."  Biden claimed that those who voted for him have "given us a mandate for action on COVID, the economy, on climate change and systemic racism." Yet in the same breath he claims that he needs to heal the nation and press for unity. 

With Democrats projected to lose seats in the house, not gain them, I'm wondering if that shouldn't temper this "mandate" just a bit. If other Republican gains throughout the country in more local, state-level races also should give him a moment of pause before he sets off on a certain "mandate." Some of the very things that divided those who voted in this election are still on the table, but Biden proposes to have a mandate to push through an agenda he had all along. That will not unify or heal.  It will exacerbate the divide.

Obviously he doesn't tell us just what this perceived "mandate" will empower him to do once he is in the White House.  Pelosi is already celebrating his win and what that means.  Yet all around them is the evidence not of a "blue wave" endorsing their agenda, but unexpected projected losses. And a presidential election that was anything but a landslide, but is coming down to painstaking vote-by-vote counting with some questions remaining as to irregularities there as well. 

I hope he walks back the "mandate" talk.  It's not going to pull folks across the aisle to work with him in happy unity.     


For many of us "action on COVID, the economy, on climate change, and systemic racism" is not a Democratic issue, but a global one. Until specific actions are presented and congress can back (or deny) them; I think actions on these issues is a global necessity for the future of life on this planet.

In broad terms, yes, one could say any of these areas concern "global" interests.

But we are talking here of policies on which Biden ran that addressed these issues.

As far as COVID is concerned we know that a vaccine is in production and expected soon.  This is already in process.  Biden talked a lot about a national mask mandate.  But I can tell you as one in a state where the governor issued one, that these are not very enforceable.  What is he going to do that will still respect the rights of states and their leaders to address this as they have?  Does he want to shut down sectors of the US?  That could face some backlash. 

As far as the economy we know that a whole slew of new taxes are planned.  We can dicker on who is impacted and affected, but taxes are not neutral.  They can raise revenue, but they can also impact the profitability of businesses and how they pass on that cost.  We can argue that it is only folks earning over $400,000, but do we honestly believe that taxes on the brackets above us do not ultimately impact those below?  How fast and hard will he push on this?  Is he willing to work with Republicans and moderate his policy goals?

Racism has been a hot topic this year.  There is no denying that racism exists, but there is certainly no consensus on how deep and widespread it is from a 'systemic' perspective.  In my church body I have heard accusations of institutional racism that are not all accurate or fair.  The "defund the police" movement rose out of the race issue, and has received backlash from some quarters.  How aggressive is Biden willing to be on this?  Does he realize that there are minorities in positions of leadership and elsewhere that do not agree to the same assessment of 'systemic racism'?  Is he willing to talk about this with others who do not share the same assessement?

Climate change talk has also been a hot topic, but for far longer than systemic racism.  Yet, again, not all see this the same way.  Not all agree with how it should be addressed.  Biden was pretty open about getting rid of fracking and moving toward oil free energy production.  He backed down from that when it became politically expedient.  Now that he has the reigns of power will the original plans come out again, or is he prepared to talk with and work with others from that sector of the energy industry?

Yes, in broad terms they may have global interest, but within each of these, based on his published policy statements and stump rhetoric, there are a lot of specifics that are quite partisan. 

If he now feels he has a "mandate" to push ahead on this even if there is Republican push back, so be it.  But two years from now the elections might want to correct that. 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 01:57:57 PM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

James S. Rustad

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4538 on: November 07, 2020, 02:44:04 PM »
It's not over yet.  It looks like the next few months will be interesting.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/statement-from-president-donald-j.-trump/

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4539 on: November 07, 2020, 04:52:36 PM »
It is over. Top lawyers have already said the proposed or filed suits either have no merit, Have already been answered or  already been thrown out.
   The statement by the president is simply another attempt to undermine the democratic process, stoke up his followers, and support his own ego.
   Can anyone imagine the amount of people that would have to be involved in serious voter fraud? This is not 1930s Chicago or Tammany Hall days in New York City when paper ballots could be diverted or manufactured or otherwise stuffed into the ballot boxes.
   Trumps claims also insult the integrity of the tens of thousands of vote counters, some of them volunteers, who do the tally.
   Peter, I see no point in discussing your scenario.
   And I will say, as I have said many times before, that Trump is a special case. This is not a matter of divergent policies. Itís not a matter of relatively simple political disagreement. As I think certain things about the vote tally have shown, it is about Trump as a person.
   It is about his character, or lack of it, his lies, his blundering, and the chaos he has brought to government. It is about Trump as a person.
   I cannot excuse the assault he made on our democracy these last days. I cannot excuse his thousands of lies to us in order to protect his own ego. I cannot excuse how he has enabled the Trump organizations to profit from his gig as president.
   People who know a lot more about constitutional law than anyone in this modest form tend to agree with me. He is incredibly incompetent and unfit in every conceivable way to hold the office.
   So what now?
   Here is the only way I think I can be kind. I will be quiet if He winds down his term, provides Biden with the proper information to make the transition go smoothly, and then gets on the helicopter and leaves federal grounds for good.
   He can still be in the news. He can promote his brand, he can hype his properties. And he will be in the news as the New York state prosecutors approach him, probably the minute he walks off federal property, with their concerns for how he has handled his taxes and his businesses.


Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4540 on: November 07, 2020, 05:01:34 PM »
How long did it take Hillary Clinton to accept the legitimacy of her election loss, has she accepted her loss? How long did it take Democrats to accept the legitimacy of their loss and work together with the legitimately elected president? (I admit a trick question, they never did.) Trump's reluctance to admit defeat is hardly unique to him.
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John_Hannah

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4541 on: November 07, 2020, 05:29:23 PM »
How long did it take Hillary Clinton to accept the legitimacy of her election loss, has she accepted her loss? How long did it take Democrats to accept the legitimacy of their loss and work together with the legitimately elected president? (I admit a trick question, they never did.) Trump's reluctance to admit defeat is hardly unique to him.

Actually, Hilary called Trump around 2:30 AM election night, congratulating him. Then she spoke to her gathered supporters, publicly conceding.    ;D

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4542 on: November 07, 2020, 05:44:05 PM »
Thank you, Pastor Hannah, I was looking that up. Four years ago, it was a gracious concession on election night.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4543 on: November 07, 2020, 06:06:14 PM »
Thank you, Pastor Hannah, I was looking that up. Four years ago, it was a gracious concession on election night.
No it wasnít. She didnít make a speech, she sent her campaign director out to tell everyone in the ballroom to go home and theyíd know more in the morning. Watch the video. President Trump was very gracious toward her in his speech, but it was the first time I can remember the winner giving the speech before the loser gave a concession speech.

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4544 on: November 07, 2020, 06:22:45 PM »
If thatís true, Peter, and this year will be the second time.
P.S. The phone call was the concession.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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