Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 546402 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3870 on: October 20, 2020, 11:44:09 AM »
Your gun rights people are using the gun issue is simply a scare tactic. There is no way in the world that, given the power of the gun lobby that, many changes are ahead if Biden wins.
I have said before that neither the president nor, to tell the truth, the Supreme Court is going to have much impact on the availability of abortions. They may become more difficult in some states, but they will not be difficult in most states. This just means that poor women in some states are going to die.
As for whether or not Trump is “the issue.” What if he is? What if his total unfitness for office is indeed the issue? What if his constant lying and missteps are indeed the issue? I have said before that during the primaries, Biden may not have been my first choice. But he is now.
And maybe it’s a bit like some of you here who would not vote for a “progressive” if Jesus himself came and put his arm around the candidate. (which I know you cannot imagine the Lord doing. 😼 )

What if I took your argument and simply switched out "abortion rights" for "gun rights" -- would you agree with that?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3871 on: October 20, 2020, 11:46:16 AM »
Your gun rights people are using the gun issue is simply a scare tactic. There is no way in the world that, given the power of the gun lobby that, many changes are ahead if Biden wins.
I have said before that neither the president nor, to tell the truth, the Supreme Court is going to have much impact on the availability of abortions. They may become more difficult in some states, but they will not be difficult in most states. This just means that poor women in some states are going to die.
As for whether or not Trump is “the issue.” What if he is? What if his total unfitness for office is indeed the issue? What if his constant lying and missteps are indeed the issue? I have said before that during the primaries, Biden may not have been my first choice. But he is now.
And maybe it’s a bit like some of you here who would not vote for a “progressive” if Jesus himself came and put his arm around the candidate. (which I know you cannot imagine the Lord doing. 😼 )
There are people who would vote for Trump on the issues but can't bring themselves to vote for him. I came within a hair's breadth of being one such person in 2016, deciding on my way to the poll to vote for him. I know many people who, on balance, support most of his policies but not him. Most of them didn't vote for him in 2016 but will this time, while still not approving of him as a person.

What amazes me is when people who wouldn't vote for a conservative no matter how graceful, articulate, educated, and personally decent he was claim that what matters to them is Trump's unfitness for office. That isn't what matters to them, at least in so far as their vote is concerned, which is the only expression of preference that matters. They cast their vote, predictably, for the progressive Democrat candidate regardless of the Republican's fitness for office, then act stunned that anyone who disagrees with them on policy would do the same thing and cast a vote based on policy regardless of the candidate's fitness for office. 

Julio

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3872 on: October 20, 2020, 11:49:11 AM »
Your gun rights people are using the gun issue is simply a scare tactic. There is no way in the world that, given the power of the gun lobby that, many changes are ahead if Biden wins.I have said before that neither the president nor, to tell the truth, the Supreme Court is going to have much impact on the availability of abortions. They may become more difficult in some states, but they will not be difficult in most states. This just means that poor women in some states are going to die.As for whether or not Trump is “the issue.” What if he is? What if his total unfitness for office is indeed the issue? What if his constant lying and missteps are indeed the issue? I have said before that during the primaries, Biden may not have been my first choice. But he is now.And maybe it’s a bit like some of you here who would not vote for a “progressive” if Jesus himself came and put his arm around the candidate. (which I know you cannot imagine the Lord doing. 😼 )

Such assurances from an anti gun fanatic is disingenuous and rings rather hollow.

Lulling the public to the point of apathy on gun rights fails to acknowledge that allowing democrat control of both houses of congress will indeed do irreparable harm to gun rights ... unless the courts are called on to defend the constitutional right of gun ownership.
[/size]

Further more those who thrive on double standards often fail to note the hypocrisy of their own double standards.🤭🤐

Steven W Bohler

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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3874 on: October 20, 2020, 12:58:20 PM »
What amazes me is when people who wouldn't vote for a conservative no matter how graceful, articulate, educated, and personally decent he was claim that what matters to them is Trump's unfitness for office. That isn't what matters to them, at least in so far as their vote is concerned, which is the only expression of preference that matters. They cast their vote, predictably, for the progressive Democrat candidate regardless of the Republican's fitness for office, then act stunned that anyone who disagrees with them on policy would do the same thing and cast a vote based on policy regardless of the candidate's fitness for office.
This!  A thousand times this!  Inject it directly into my veins!  I would only add that unfitness has never really stopped them voting for a progressive Democrat.

I refuse to be lectured by the people you are describing, who insist that virtue requires me to do as they say.  Such hectoring is not principled; it's the height of partisan hackery.  That said, I'm still not voting for Trump, not because anyone is demanding it of me.  I'm also not voting for Biden, because Kamala Harris...otherwise I would while holding my nose, despite his typical class warfare campaign demagoguery.  I'm not touting myself as superior for my choice.   I won't attempt to shame or disparage anyone who is choosing to vote for either...unless they are the hypocrites who behave as you describe.  Once again, that is the latter half of "liberals think conservatives evil" rearing its ugly head.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 01:04:39 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3875 on: October 20, 2020, 01:01:09 PM »
What if I took your argument and simply switched out "abortion rights" for "gun rights" -- would you agree with that?

This counterpoint has always perplexed me:  how each side cannot appreciate the strong feelings of the opposing viewpoint, even as they disagree.  Yes, I realize each side will say their position is different from the other's, but I'm talking about civility in public discourse and how we talk to each other.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 01:03:00 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3876 on: October 20, 2020, 01:03:50 PM »
He said God does not give the individual the right to murder. He said nothing about God retaining that right for Himself or giving that right to the community. Your responses so often obfuscate by not using the same subject as the things you're responding to.


The subject is killing human beings. There's an awful lot of that in the Bible. The NRSV has 570 verses with a form of "kill" in it, plus another 125 verses with a form of "murder" in it. There are verses where God kills people. There are verses where God asks the people to kill other people. Killing other people is not always forbidden.


How does God give the right to kill to the community? Isn't it through legal codes? The right to an abortion has been given to the community. The right to perform an abortion has been given to the experts in the field.


Individuals kill in scriptures. Jael kills Sisera. David kills Goliath. Samson kills the Philistines.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James J Eivan

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3877 on: October 20, 2020, 03:26:00 PM »
He said God does not give the individual the right to murder. He said nothing about God retaining that right for Himself or giving that right to the community. Your responses so often obfuscate by not using the same subject as the things you're responding to.
The subject is killing human beings. There's an awful lot of that in the Bible. The NRSV has 570 verses with a form of "kill" in it, plus another 125 verses with a form of "murder" in it. There are verses where God kills people. There are verses where God asks the people to kill other people. Killing other people is not always forbidden. to.

Wrong again ... this discussion began with the statement “ The God I worship and believe in does not give the individual the right or permission to murder.”  This is the topic ... not what ever spin you wish to use to distract from the subject at hand.
Quote
How does God give the right to kill to the community? Isn't it through legal codes? The right to an abortion has been given to the community. The right to perform an abortion has been given to the experts in the field.
It is also better to obey God rather than man ... in the case of abortion, man’s laws transgress God’s laws. to.
Quote

Individuals kill in scriptures. Jael kills Sisera. David kills Goliath. Samson kills the Philistines.
Individuals do kill in scriptures.  You falsely insinuate that God blesses an activity simply because he allows activities to occur.

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3878 on: October 20, 2020, 03:35:04 PM »
Thread drift.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

RogerMartim

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3879 on: October 20, 2020, 03:53:22 PM »
This is from Michael Steele, the former head of the Republican National Committee (RNC):
"I am an American, a conservative and a Republican, in that order. And I am voting for Joe Biden on November 3. Rather than binding up the nation’s wounds, Trump exacerbates division. Rather than standing up to the world’s dictators, Trump cravenly seeks the favor of thugs. Rather than fostering free enterprise, Trump embraces economic principles not only outdated in Lincoln’s time, but made even worse today by a leader who lost close to a billion dollars in a single year running a casino.
"As I’ve reflected on matters of leadership, decency, and constitutional norms I am reminded of the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who said 'a man dies when he refuses to take a stand for that which is true.'  Character matters. Our vote matters. The leader we choose matters. I cannot be silent, and I hope neither can you because we know a vote for Joe Biden is what is best for our country — because America matters."

Richard Johnson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3880 on: October 20, 2020, 04:10:30 PM »
I'm also not voting for Biden, because Kamala Harris...otherwise I would while holding my nose, despite his typical class warfare campaign demagoguery. 

Just out of curiosity, which running mate might Biden have chosen that would enable you to vote for him while holding your nose? Warren? Sanders?  I assume, despite your "otherwise," that quite a few of the other options would also have prevented you from voting for him.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3881 on: October 20, 2020, 04:22:41 PM »
I'm also not voting for Biden, because Kamala Harris...otherwise I would while holding my nose, despite his typical class warfare campaign demagoguery. 

Just out of curiosity, which running mate might Biden have chosen that would enable you to vote for him while holding your nose? Warren? Sanders?  I assume, despite your "otherwise," that quite a few of the other options would also have prevented you from voting for him.

I don't know about Mr. (Pr. ?) Spatz, but I would have been OK with Klobuchar or maybe even Warren given that Biden promised to choose a woman for his VP.  If he did not hold to that, I would have been fine with Andrew Yang or Cory Booker.   However, you are right that I found all of the frontrunners including Susan Rice, Tammy Duckworth, Stacey Abrams, and Kamala Harris unpalatable due to their strongly liberal positions.

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3882 on: October 20, 2020, 05:03:36 PM »
Biden-Pence

Peter (Why can’t we all just get along?) Garrison
Pete Garrison

James J Eivan

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3883 on: October 20, 2020, 05:05:18 PM »
I'm also not voting for Biden, because Kamala Harris...otherwise I would while holding my nose, despite his typical class warfare campaign demagoguery. 
Just out of curiosity, which running mate might Biden have chosen that would enable you to vote for him while holding your nose? Warren? Sanders?  I assume, despite your "otherwise," that quite a few of the other options would also have prevented you from voting for him.
I don't know about Mr. (Pr. ?) Spatz, but I would have been OK with Klobuchar or maybe even Warren given that Biden promised to choose a woman for his VP.  If he did not hold to that, I would have been fine with Andrew Yang or Cory Booker.   However, you are right that I found all of the frontrunners including Susan Rice, Tammy Duckworth, Stacey Abrams, and Kamala Harris unpalatable due to their strongly liberal positions.
Do any of those others really pass the abortion test?  Yang was a bit early on the cash give away that COVID brought on ... Booker is anti voter ID.

An interesting question might be what republican(s) (if any) may have persuaded anti abortion democrats to vote Republican for president?  Hopefully this can be answered in a civil manner ... realizing that some democrats are pro abortion and would never vote republican.

James J Eivan

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #3884 on: October 20, 2020, 05:08:30 PM »
Biden-Pence

Peter (Why can’t we all just get along?) Garrison
Especially if Biden is a place holder only .🤩😁.. it’s doubtful since Pence is as much anti abortion as Biden is pro abortion.