Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 379027 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2940 on: September 15, 2020, 12:29:16 AM »
Tom Pearson:
Are you really suggesting that defeating Trump this year is so crucial that you would advise people, people who may be considering voting for a third party candidate, to vote in violation of their conscience?
Me:
There is conscience and then there is conscience. And every matter of conscience does not bear the same weight. Some who might want to “vote green”, as a matter of conscience may believe that it is more important to defeat the current Occupant of the oval office who is dismantling many of the environmental protection regulations. Tossing away a vote to a third-party might actually help this person stay in office. They might not want that on their concepts.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2941 on: September 15, 2020, 12:46:59 AM »
Tom Pearson:
Are you really suggesting that defeating Trump this year is so crucial that you would advise people, people who may be considering voting for a third party candidate, to vote in violation of their conscience?
Me:
There is conscience and then there is conscience. And every matter of conscience does not bear the same weight. Some who might want to “vote green”, as a matter of conscience may believe that it is more important to defeat the current Occupant of the oval office who is dismantling many of the environmental protection regulations. Tossing away a vote to a third-party might actually help this person stay in office. They might not want that on their concepts.
The preponderance of evidence in this forum is that more people who are voting third party or not voting would, if forced to choose, favor the Republican platform over the Democrat platform. Thus, people setting aside matters of conscience to vote strictly for one of the two major party candidates might result in a net gain for the incumbent. Of course we’ll never know because people do in fact (where private ballot prevails) vote their conscience. It all depends on how their conscience is informed.

J.L. Precup

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2942 on: September 15, 2020, 01:13:58 AM »
"When I vote, I vote my conscience.  I vote for candidates who best represent the public principles and values that I am committed to.  When I find both major party candidates (and both major parties) anathema, as I do this year, I will vote for those candidates who, in their public pronouncements, indicate that they are dedicated to policies I believe in.  Are you really suggesting that defeating Trump this year is so crucial that you would advise people, people who may be considering voting for a third party candidate, to vote in violation of their conscience?

If I were interested in being offended by this, I'd be offended by this.

Tom Pearson"

I'm glad you're not interested in being offended by this.  I also hope that after the election you will have no regrets. 

Two electricians I worked with in 1969 regretted voting for George Wallace even though they believed in his policies.
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

B Hughes

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2943 on: September 15, 2020, 07:11:24 AM »

  Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out; looks like a judge stuffed the PA governor's back into the box. Between their overreach response to the China lab virus and allowing Antifa/BLM to burn down their businesses, it will be fascinating to see how the voters respond in a couple of months.

https://6abc.com/coronavirus-in-pennsylvania-covid-19-unconstitutional-gov-wolf/6422411/

 


Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2944 on: September 15, 2020, 07:26:57 AM »
The preponderance of evidence in this forum is that more people who are voting third party or not voting would, if forced to choose, favor the Republican platform over the Democrat platform. Thus, people setting aside matters of conscience to vote strictly for one of the two major party candidates might result in a net gain for the incumbent. Of course we’ll never know because people do in fact (where private ballot prevails) vote their conscience. It all depends on how their conscience is informed.

I am pleased to find that you understand our position.  Especially since in the last eighty years or so, personality politics have overtaken platform politics.  I would guess this accords with the shift in presidential power increasing and congressional power waning.

Platforms used to stand for something.  With regard to the Green and Libertarian parties, they still do for the most part despite some change and debate from election cycle to election cycle on issues like abortion (Libertarian) and the economy.  But this year, the Republicans adopted no real platform; essentially re-adopting the 2016 platform that I don't believe Trump ever officially committed to in the first place.

This also illustrates some of the small power that third parties have.  While nowhere near the power of the Progressive party which regularly nominated Eugene V. Debs for president, today's third parties do stand for something.  Libertarians have awoken a streak in both parties to avoid legislation in areas the government does not need to go; the Green Party has advocated for important environmental issues.   I think the Democratic progressives do owe a debt to the Green Party.  Whether their Green New Deal is the best environmental policy or not, it would never have grown the support it has without the work of those in the Green Party in years past.

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2945 on: September 15, 2020, 07:32:03 AM »
"When I vote, I vote my conscience.  I vote for candidates who best represent the public principles and values that I am committed to.  When I find both major party candidates (and both major parties) anathema, as I do this year, I will vote for those candidates who, in their public pronouncements, indicate that they are dedicated to policies I believe in.  Are you really suggesting that defeating Trump this year is so crucial that you would advise people, people who may be considering voting for a third party candidate, to vote in violation of their conscience?

If I were interested in being offended by this, I'd be offended by this.

Tom Pearson"

I'm glad you're not interested in being offended by this.  I also hope that after the election you will have no regrets. 

Two electricians I worked with in 1969 regretted voting for George Wallace even though they believed in his policies.

I'm interested in what they regretted and when.  Did they regret that Nixon was elected and think that Humphrey would have better reflected the segregationist policies they believed in?  Or did they believe in Humphrey's other policies and regret Nixon was elected for that reason?

Or did they just come after time to regret voting for Wallace at all because they eventually regretted believing in his policies?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2946 on: September 15, 2020, 09:08:08 AM »
The preponderance of evidence in this forum is that more people who are voting third party or not voting would, if forced to choose, favor the Republican platform over the Democrat platform. Thus, people setting aside matters of conscience to vote strictly for one of the two major party candidates might result in a net gain for the incumbent. Of course we’ll never know because people do in fact (where private ballot prevails) vote their conscience. It all depends on how their conscience is informed.

I am pleased to find that you understand our position.  Especially since in the last eighty years or so, personality politics have overtaken platform politics.  I would guess this accords with the shift in presidential power increasing and congressional power waning.

Platforms used to stand for something.  With regard to the Green and Libertarian parties, they still do for the most part despite some change and debate from election cycle to election cycle on issues like abortion (Libertarian) and the economy.  But this year, the Republicans adopted no real platform; essentially re-adopting the 2016 platform that I don't believe Trump ever officially committed to in the first place.

This also illustrates some of the small power that third parties have.  While nowhere near the power of the Progressive party which regularly nominated Eugene V. Debs for president, today's third parties do stand for something.  Libertarians have awoken a streak in both parties to avoid legislation in areas the government does not need to go; the Green Party has advocated for important environmental issues.   I think the Democratic progressives do owe a debt to the Green Party.  Whether their Green New Deal is the best environmental policy or not, it would never have grown the support it has without the work of those in the Green Party in years past.
This is sort of the Catch-22. If you refuse for your party unless it goes far enough in endorsing your views you gain influence in the party but might also lose influence in the actual government because your party won't win as many elections. Pro-lifers are sometimes faced with this dilemma, too, since the GOP is far more open to pro-choices and moderates than the Dems are to pro-lifers. Do you win relatively meaninglessly or lose in a principled fashion?

Since I vote pro-life I am fully up front about about the fact that I want to hold the GOP captive to my views. If a pro-choice Democrat wins over my objections, so be it. We live to fight another day. But if a pro-choice Republican wins with or without my help, where will I find a home politically to fight another day? The GOP will have proven they can get along just fine without people like me.

I don't think Trump really gets the pro-life position. But he understands that he needs pro-lifers. In a cold political calculation, he might think he is using us, but so are we using him. I think if Trump advanced socialism and the Green New Deal the way he advances conservative causes, you'd see all kinds of cheerleading for him from people who currently spit on the ground at the mention of his name.

James J Eivan

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2947 on: September 15, 2020, 09:12:09 AM »
Having voted for Republicans my entire adult life, I was not bothered much by President Clinton’s tenure. I have to say that President Obama’s leadership, especially on the international stage (e.g., his apology tour) and his lying (e.g., “You can keep your doctor”) dismayed me more than any other president during my lifetime. President Carter’s handling of the hostage crisis gets honorable mention.

I've kept my doctors. You didn't?

This is analogous:

Someone comments that racial minorities have suffered discrimination. Brian responds to us on ALPB, "I've never been discriminated against because of my race. Have you?" Then he starts a new thread, polling us on ALPB as to how many of us have been discriminated against because of our race, intending to debunk the assertion that racial minorities have suffered discrimination.
  ::)


Apparently this is a long term issue that you have opined on in the past.

Indeed. I don't understand what Rev. Stoffregen's point is...


Oh, right...

James S. Rustad

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2948 on: September 15, 2020, 09:52:57 AM »
The preponderance of evidence in this forum is that more people who are voting third party or not voting would, if forced to choose, favor the Republican platform over the Democrat platform. Thus, people setting aside matters of conscience to vote strictly for one of the two major party candidates might result in a net gain for the incumbent. Of course we’ll never know because people do in fact (where private ballot prevails) vote their conscience. It all depends on how their conscience is informed.

I am pleased to find that you understand our position.  Especially since in the last eighty years or so, personality politics have overtaken platform politics.  I would guess this accords with the shift in presidential power increasing and congressional power waning.

Platforms used to stand for something.  With regard to the Green and Libertarian parties, they still do for the most part despite some change and debate from election cycle to election cycle on issues like abortion (Libertarian) and the economy.  But this year, the Republicans adopted no real platform; essentially re-adopting the 2016 platform that I don't believe Trump ever officially committed to in the first place.

This also illustrates some of the small power that third parties have.  While nowhere near the power of the Progressive party which regularly nominated Eugene V. Debs for president, today's third parties do stand for something.  Libertarians have awoken a streak in both parties to avoid legislation in areas the government does not need to go; the Green Party has advocated for important environmental issues.   I think the Democratic progressives do owe a debt to the Green Party.  Whether their Green New Deal is the best environmental policy or not, it would never have grown the support it has without the work of those in the Green Party in years past.
This is sort of the Catch-22. If you refuse for your party unless it goes far enough in endorsing your views you gain influence in the party but might also lose influence in the actual government because your party won't win as many elections. Pro-lifers are sometimes faced with this dilemma, too, since the GOP is far more open to pro-choices and moderates than the Dems are to pro-lifers. Do you win relatively meaninglessly or lose in a principled fashion?

Since I vote pro-life I am fully up front about about the fact that I want to hold the GOP captive to my views. If a pro-choice Democrat wins over my objections, so be it. We live to fight another day. But if a pro-choice Republican wins with or without my help, where will I find a home politically to fight another day? The GOP will have proven they can get along just fine without people like me.

I don't think Trump really gets the pro-life position. But he understands that he needs pro-lifers. In a cold political calculation, he might think he is using us, but so are we using him. I think if Trump advanced socialism and the Green New Deal the way he advances conservative causes, you'd see all kinds of cheerleading for him from people who currently spit on the ground at the mention of his name.

The problem with your argument is you keep saying "your party" when referring to the Republicans or Democrats.  I do not consider either of those to be *my* party.  I have voted Republican.  I have voted Democrat.  I am *not* a Republican or a Democrat.  Oftentimes I see both the Republican and the Democrat as equally bad.  In this election I may decide to vote for Trump because I see Biden as being worse.  My wife has already decided that is what she is doing.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2949 on: September 15, 2020, 10:11:48 AM »
The preponderance of evidence in this forum is that more people who are voting third party or not voting would, if forced to choose, favor the Republican platform over the Democrat platform. Thus, people setting aside matters of conscience to vote strictly for one of the two major party candidates might result in a net gain for the incumbent. Of course we’ll never know because people do in fact (where private ballot prevails) vote their conscience. It all depends on how their conscience is informed.

I am pleased to find that you understand our position.  Especially since in the last eighty years or so, personality politics have overtaken platform politics.  I would guess this accords with the shift in presidential power increasing and congressional power waning.

Platforms used to stand for something.  With regard to the Green and Libertarian parties, they still do for the most part despite some change and debate from election cycle to election cycle on issues like abortion (Libertarian) and the economy.  But this year, the Republicans adopted no real platform; essentially re-adopting the 2016 platform that I don't believe Trump ever officially committed to in the first place.

This also illustrates some of the small power that third parties have.  While nowhere near the power of the Progressive party which regularly nominated Eugene V. Debs for president, today's third parties do stand for something.  Libertarians have awoken a streak in both parties to avoid legislation in areas the government does not need to go; the Green Party has advocated for important environmental issues.   I think the Democratic progressives do owe a debt to the Green Party.  Whether their Green New Deal is the best environmental policy or not, it would never have grown the support it has without the work of those in the Green Party in years past.
This is sort of the Catch-22. If you refuse for your party unless it goes far enough in endorsing your views you gain influence in the party but might also lose influence in the actual government because your party won't win as many elections. Pro-lifers are sometimes faced with this dilemma, too, since the GOP is far more open to pro-choices and moderates than the Dems are to pro-lifers. Do you win relatively meaninglessly or lose in a principled fashion?

Since I vote pro-life I am fully up front about about the fact that I want to hold the GOP captive to my views. If a pro-choice Democrat wins over my objections, so be it. We live to fight another day. But if a pro-choice Republican wins with or without my help, where will I find a home politically to fight another day? The GOP will have proven they can get along just fine without people like me.

I don't think Trump really gets the pro-life position. But he understands that he needs pro-lifers. In a cold political calculation, he might think he is using us, but so are we using him. I think if Trump advanced socialism and the Green New Deal the way he advances conservative causes, you'd see all kinds of cheerleading for him from people who currently spit on the ground at the mention of his name.

The problem with your argument is you keep saying "your party" when referring to the Republicans or Democrats.  I do not consider either of those to be *my* party.  I have voted Republican.  I have voted Democrat.  I am *not* a Republican or a Democrat.  Oftentimes I see both the Republican and the Democrat as equally bad.  In this election I may decide to vote for Trump because I see Biden as being worse.  My wife has already decided that is what she is doing.
I am not a Democrat or Republican either, at least in any official sense. What I mean by that is the party that is closer to being on your side of whatever issue(s) you care about. So, for example, if you support the platform of the Green Party, then regardless of your party affiliation, "your party" is either the Green Party or the Democrats. That is, the former will hold to your agenda strictly and almost certainly lose, while the latter will hold to your agenda somewhat and possible win. But the Republicans are not "your party" because they will oppose your agenda outright. "Your party" in this sense is the one that at least gives lip service to your values.

Another way to look at it is to say that "your party" is the party that stands to lose a vote if you choose not to vote or vote for a third party candidate.

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2950 on: September 15, 2020, 10:13:18 AM »
I think I said before that if the Republicans dumped Trump and nominated someone else, I would even consider voting for that person just to reward  them for their common sense. As it is, I would not vote for someone who supported the president Even if they were a moderate  or liberal Republican. Ben Sasse has been quiet, so he’s off my list, too.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2951 on: September 15, 2020, 10:36:50 AM »
The problem with your argument is you keep saying "your party" when referring to the Republicans or Democrats.  I do not consider either of those to be *my* party.  I have voted Republican.  I have voted Democrat.  I am *not* a Republican or a Democrat.  Oftentimes I see both the Republican and the Democrat as equally bad.  In this election I may decide to vote for Trump because I see Biden as being worse.  My wife has already decided that is what she is doing.
I am not a Democrat or Republican either, at least in any official sense. What I mean by that is the party that is closer to being on your side of whatever issue(s) you care about. So, for example, if you support the platform of the Green Party, then regardless of your party affiliation, "your party" is either the Green Party or the Democrats. That is, the former will hold to your agenda strictly and almost certainly lose, while the latter will hold to your agenda somewhat and possible win. But the Republicans are not "your party" because they will oppose your agenda outright. "Your party" in this sense is the one that at least gives lip service to your values.

Another way to look at it is to say that "your party" is the party that stands to lose a vote if you choose not to vote or vote for a third party candidate.

Pr. Speckhard,

You explain this well.  The other thing is that the presidency does not tell the whole tale.   The Gingrich Contract With America resulted in a balanced budget even though Clinton was president.  I am for a balanced budget, but neither party pays even lip service to that ideal any more.

I am pro-life.  As you say, this ties me to the Republican party even though I disagree with Trump's rhetoric, leadership, and approach to enforcing legal immigration. 

I disagree with most of the progressive Democratic party's goals although I do believe Biden would do a better job in working with Congress and leading the country on things like COVID-19 response.

In 2016, I voted Libertarian.  I may do so again, but I am not certain doing so may not weaken my pro-life stance as you illustrate about a Republican vote.  So I am without a party right now.

B Hughes

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2952 on: September 15, 2020, 10:55:49 AM »
I think I said before that if the Republicans dumped Trump and nominated someone else, I would even consider voting for that person just to reward  them for their common sense. As it is, I would not vote for someone who supported the president Even if they were a moderate  or liberal Republican. Ben Sasse has been quiet, so he’s off my list, too.

Thank you for sharing this.  Until this was posted I was unsure how you viewed the president.

Just in case you missed how I view leaders from your party, this is what happens when Democrat governors and mayors abrogate their responsibilities to protect their fellow citizens from outside criminal elements: people will take unto themselves the means for that protection.  I do not think this is a good thing.  It represents a breakdown of civil order and reinforces the need for an armed "mob" on the other side to the equation, only in this case the mob isn't armed with firebombs and seeking destruction, but working with their neighbors to protect themselves. 

This is the ongoing legacy of Democrat leadership. If they would dump some of these people and raise up leaders with common sense I might reflect on whether they are worth trusting with my vote.  Since they have haven't, well ....

 https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/one-million-fire-refugees-in-oregon-forming-army-to-forcibly-overthrow-state-government-and-take-back-the-state







Coach-Rev

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2953 on: September 15, 2020, 10:58:33 AM »
I think I said before that if the Republicans dumped Trump and nominated someone else, I would even consider voting for that person just to reward  them for their common sense.

I have a difficult time believing this, based on your history here.

Quote
As it is, I would not vote for someone who supported the president Even if they were a moderate  or liberal Republican. Ben Sasse has been quiet, so he’s off my list, too.

well, since you do not live anywhere near Nebraska, and therefore don't have any right to vote either for or against him...  ::) ::)
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Mike Gehlhausen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2954 on: September 15, 2020, 11:12:20 AM »
I think I said before that if the Republicans dumped Trump and nominated someone else, I would even consider voting for that person just to reward  them for their common sense.

I have a difficult time believing this, based on your history here.

I can believe he would consider it and then decide not to vote for that candidate.

I'm certain Pr. Austin is a big fan of Mitt Romney's now that he voted to convict President Trump in the Senate trial.  And yet I am just as certain that he did not vote for Romney in 2012.