Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 297623 times)

David Garner

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2535 on: September 02, 2020, 01:10:55 PM »
I think you have to consider the self-fulfilling prophesy aspect of teaching people distrust. When you tell people what to look for, they begin to see it. When you're told your people have an antagonistic relationship to law enforcement, you grow into that.

I tend to think people believe things out of rational self interest.  It's easy to see if you simply apply it to something you care about.

For example, we're discussing why people vote for a guy like Trump in the other thread.  This is a Board full of Christians.  Maybe the fact that the last administration sued nuns to make them pay for abortifacient medication and the current nominee was the VP in that administration has something to do with it?

Likewise, maybe the fact that black people experience police differently than you and I do has something to do with it.  Your words imply that they were taught to fear the police.  I agree.  But I don't think they were taught by agitators or media or politicians.  They were taught by cops. And they were taught by us. 

As I said upstream, that doesn't mean most cops are bad guys.  But it does mean there are institutional issues with how law enforcement deals with black people.  Here in the south, that goes back to a time not so very long ago when they were arrested and convicted for crimes they didn't commit, and on the rare occasion evidence did not present itself, they were often lynched by mobs of angry white men.  And it rears its head, as I said above, when white people respond to them being killed by cops with "oh, yeah? Well he had a marijuana possession charge, so it isn't like he was innocent."

For Pastor Morris, who was skeptical of this above, just look at the NRA's response to the killing of Philando Castille.

Then, when they are killed by police, so often charges are not brought.  Sometimes that is the correct outcome.  Witness Michael Brown.  But often charges are warranted, as in the Castille case I mention above and countless others.  Tamir Rice was a young boy playing with a toy gun on a playground and he was shot by a white cop.  No charges were filed.  I don't mean no murder charge.  I mean they found the shooting was justified.  Tamir Rice was 12.  My youngest daughter is 12.  Thinking of her being black and male instead of white and female puts a different perspective on things.  I haven't once had to discuss with her what to do if she encounters a police officer.

So when a black man tells me "I'm afraid every time I see blue lights," I can't really relate to that.  But I understand.  And I think it is too dismissive to suggest that if only the media and Democrats wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, black people wouldn't feel that way.

I think you have to consider the self-fulfilling prophesy aspect of teaching people distrust. When you tell people what to look for, they begin to see it. When you're told your people have an antagonistic relationship to law enforcement, you grow into that.


Isn't that also true when Blacks are often portrayed as crooks, drug dealers, criminals, etc.? People also grow into that.

Accurate.

I mean, in Breonna Taylor's case, at least, I think the likelihood they'd have gotten a no knock warrant in the first place would be greatly diminished if she were white.  Black people have to deal with the police in ways you and I do not.  Every black person I know thinks there is a racial component to how those cases were handled.  There is disagreement in the particulars, granted.  But every one of them teaches their kids how to deal with police.  They consider the police to be a danger to them, even if they've done nothing wrong.

Why do you think that is?

Assuming the final question is not rhetorical, here's a quick attempt at an answer...

It's complicated.

I grew up in a very rural setting with almost exclusively white residents. In that setting, there were also families who were very clear in their stance toward law enforcement and how their children should respond to officers. The dichotomy between those who view law enforcement as their allies and those who view law enforcement as a potential threat does not follow race lines neatly. It's complicated.

I volunteered in a juvenile detention center for four years. There was much less diversity of opinion of law enforcement there, unsurprisingly. And yet there were young men there who evidenced no mistrust or animosity toward either police or the court system. They saw the system of their upbringing and environment as the threat. The difference of view did not neatly follow any discernible lines of race. It's complicated.

Which means that we then have to dig into other factors, such as environment and culture, in order to start to pose an answer. There are white people who embrace the outlaw or thug life mentality and culture. There are black and brown people who reject it. It's complicated.

If people from minority cultures are targeted for mistreatment by law enforcement, why is there still such a prevalence of minority members serving in law enforcement? Why are those precipitating violence against the "racist" justice system so often upper-class white people? It's complicated.

I have absolutely no question that I am not stopped and questioned for certain actions when a black man might be. That troubles me.

I also just read the comments of the mother of yesterday's LA-shooting victim to the effect that "the police are only killing Black people". That troubles me, too. Because it isn't true. But that perception will inform her (and others') view of reality.

I loathe knee-jerk partisanship. But I also don't think partisanship is the only or perhaps even primary cause of our current troubles. I loathe race-based partiality. But I don't think race-based partiality is the only or perhaps even the primary cause of our current troubles.

It's complicated. Anything that makes it sound simple is a sales pitch.

And FWIW, I (white, upper-middle-class me)... I have taught my 14-year-old how to respectfully know his rights in dealing with law enforcement. And every law enforcement officer I know has done the same - they know better than I do the flaws and dangers in our current systems.

I think this is well reasoned.  But I also note it doesn't once mention the many cases where police have killed black people in this country and walked away scot-free.  And until that is taken into account, I fear you will continue to be mystified as to why black people don't trust cops.  It isn't their fault.  Granted, it isn't most cops' fault either, except inasmuch as the whole "good cops don't cover for bad cops" thing is true. But it is rational. It is based in reality, and in their own experience, and until we really address that, the divide will remain.

That's why I'm here, addressing it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 01:12:44 PM by David Garner »
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2536 on: September 02, 2020, 01:13:40 PM »
I think you have to consider the self-fulfilling prophesy aspect of teaching people distrust. When you tell people what to look for, they begin to see it. When you're told your people have an antagonistic relationship to law enforcement, you grow into that.


Isn't that also true when Blacks are often portrayed as crooks, drug dealers, criminals, etc.? People also grow into that.
True. The issue there is what the goal of a depiction is. I watched a Spike Lee movie recently. The Jewish characters were stereotypically New York Jew. Was he trying to portray New York as he really saw it, or was he trying to improve people's perception of Jews? What is the purpose of a film? If you portray things inaccurately, you lose credibility. If you portray them accurately, you perpetuate perceptions. It isn't an easy cycle to reverse.

Rob Morris

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2537 on: September 02, 2020, 01:16:32 PM »
The target of the warrant wasn't present, but he was her former boyfriend. The male inhabitant of her apartment (her current boyfriend, who has the same last name as the drug dealer named in the warrant) fired on the officers. It is said he believed they were intruders.  As you point out, they were intruders... legal intruders because of current no-knock laws. That said, her boyfriend fired on the police officers either without figuring out who they were or without believing their answer. He was shot eight times. I haven't heard any calls to "say his name" - does anyone here know it without looking it up? If the officers were so wrong, why don't we know his name?
boldface added


The reports I've read say that Breonna Taylor was shot eight times. I've read nothing about Kenneth Walker being shot. He was taken to jail and later released. Not taken to a hospital.

You are correct, and that is my mistake. In re-reading the summaries, I misread. Rather than fix the original post and render the exchange confusing, I will just own the error here.

However, it does negate my point about why we don't know his name. It does serve to highlight another point - the consequences of unwise actions are so often visited on loved ones. But that point is not exactly germane to the discussion.

Germane to the discussion: how many "unwise actions" piled up in these flashpoint cases? At what point is the outcome, while still lamentable, so preventable as to lessen the teaching or cultural value of any single one of them? And why is raising that question so often immediately dismissed as "victim-blaming"?

When Black parents (or parents of any race) instruct their children how to be safe in regards to police, how many of them would hold up George Floyd, Jacob Blake, or in more obtuse ways even Breonna Taylor, as their example? I know that sounds callous, but in each case there exists a list of choices that, if handled differently, would likely have prevented the fatal outcome. And in some cases, that fatal outcome will likely lead to conviction by the perpetrator.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2538 on: September 02, 2020, 01:18:26 PM »
I think you have to consider the self-fulfilling prophesy aspect of teaching people distrust. When you tell people what to look for, they begin to see it. When you're told your people have an antagonistic relationship to law enforcement, you grow into that.

I tend to think people believe things out of rational self interest.  It's easy to see if you simply apply it to something you care about.

For example, we're discussing why people vote for a guy like Trump in the other thread.  This is a Board full of Christians.  Maybe the fact that the last administration sued nuns to make them pay for abortifacient medication and the current nominee was the VP in that administration has something to do with it?

Likewise, maybe the fact that black people experience police differently than you and I do has something to do with it.  Your words imply that they were taught to fear the police.  I agree.  But I don't think they were taught by agitators or media or politicians.  They were taught by cops. And they were taught by us. 

As I said upstream, that doesn't mean most cops are bad guys.  But it does mean there are institutional issues with how law enforcement deals with black people.  Here in the south, that goes back to a time not so very long ago when they were arrested and convicted for crimes they didn't commit, and on the rare occasion evidence did not present itself, they were often lynched by mobs of angry white men.  And it rears its head, as I said above, when white people respond to them being killed by cops with "oh, yeah? Well he had a marijuana possession charge, so it isn't like he was innocent."

For Pastor Morris, who was skeptical of this above, just look at the NRA's response to the killing of Philando Castille.

Then, when they are killed by police, so often charges are not brought.  Sometimes that is the correct outcome.  Witness Michael Brown.  But often charges are warranted, as in the Castille case I mention above and countless others.  Tamir Rice was a young boy playing with a toy gun on a playground and he was shot by a white cop.  No charges were filed.  I don't mean no murder charge.  I mean they found the shooting was justified.  Tamir Rice was 12.  My youngest daughter is 12.  Thinking of her being black and male instead of white and female puts a different perspective on things.  I haven't once had to discuss with her what to do if she encounters a police officer.

So when a black man tells me "I'm afraid every time I see blue lights," I can't really relate to that.  But I understand.  And I think it is too dismissive to suggest that if only the media and Democrats wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, black people wouldn't feel that way.

I think you have to consider the self-fulfilling prophesy aspect of teaching people distrust. When you tell people what to look for, they begin to see it. When you're told your people have an antagonistic relationship to law enforcement, you grow into that.


Isn't that also true when Blacks are often portrayed as crooks, drug dealers, criminals, etc.? People also grow into that.

Accurate.

I mean, in Breonna Taylor's case, at least, I think the likelihood they'd have gotten a no knock warrant in the first place would be greatly diminished if she were white.  Black people have to deal with the police in ways you and I do not.  Every black person I know thinks there is a racial component to how those cases were handled.  There is disagreement in the particulars, granted.  But every one of them teaches their kids how to deal with police.  They consider the police to be a danger to them, even if they've done nothing wrong.

Why do you think that is?

Assuming the final question is not rhetorical, here's a quick attempt at an answer...

It's complicated.

I grew up in a very rural setting with almost exclusively white residents. In that setting, there were also families who were very clear in their stance toward law enforcement and how their children should respond to officers. The dichotomy between those who view law enforcement as their allies and those who view law enforcement as a potential threat does not follow race lines neatly. It's complicated.

I volunteered in a juvenile detention center for four years. There was much less diversity of opinion of law enforcement there, unsurprisingly. And yet there were young men there who evidenced no mistrust or animosity toward either police or the court system. They saw the system of their upbringing and environment as the threat. The difference of view did not neatly follow any discernible lines of race. It's complicated.

Which means that we then have to dig into other factors, such as environment and culture, in order to start to pose an answer. There are white people who embrace the outlaw or thug life mentality and culture. There are black and brown people who reject it. It's complicated.

If people from minority cultures are targeted for mistreatment by law enforcement, why is there still such a prevalence of minority members serving in law enforcement? Why are those precipitating violence against the "racist" justice system so often upper-class white people? It's complicated.

I have absolutely no question that I am not stopped and questioned for certain actions when a black man might be. That troubles me.

I also just read the comments of the mother of yesterday's LA-shooting victim to the effect that "the police are only killing Black people". That troubles me, too. Because it isn't true. But that perception will inform her (and others') view of reality.

I loathe knee-jerk partisanship. But I also don't think partisanship is the only or perhaps even primary cause of our current troubles. I loathe race-based partiality. But I don't think race-based partiality is the only or perhaps even the primary cause of our current troubles.

It's complicated. Anything that makes it sound simple is a sales pitch.

And FWIW, I (white, upper-middle-class me)... I have taught my 14-year-old how to respectfully know his rights in dealing with law enforcement. And every law enforcement officer I know has done the same - they know better than I do the flaws and dangers in our current systems.

I think this is well reasoned.  But I also note it doesn't once mention the many cases where police have killed black people in this country and walked away scot-free.  And until that is taken into account, I fear you will continue to be mystified as to why black people don't trust cops.  It isn't their fault.  Granted, it isn't most cops' fault either, except inasmuch as the whole "good cops don't cover for bad cops" thing is true. But it is rational. It is based in reality, and in their own experience, and until we really address that, the divide will remain.

That's why I'm here, addressing it.
Agreed, it is a symbiotic relationship. The fear didn't generate out of thin air. The question for me is what course of action is most likely to result in black people not fearing the police? That is, what will reverse the cycle of self-fulfilling prophesy? What I posted on another thread about systemic racism comes into play-- it would never have occurred to those children to fear the police, and there was not reason for them to, except that they are being taught to. Which, I think, increases the likelihood they'll have problems with the police and perpetuates the problems.

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2539 on: September 02, 2020, 01:30:09 PM »
This last page or two of discussion has been some of the best discussion I have ever read on this site.  Keep up the good work and thought!

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2540 on: September 02, 2020, 01:32:04 PM »
Pastor Morris:
Both situations are complicated, with split-second, life-or-death judgment calls
Me:
No. It took more than 8 minutes for the officer to kill George Floyd. Nothing split-second about that.
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David Garner

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2541 on: September 02, 2020, 01:50:20 PM »
Agreed, it is a symbiotic relationship. The fear didn't generate out of thin air. The question for me is what course of action is most likely to result in black people not fearing the police? That is, what will reverse the cycle of self-fulfilling prophesy? What I posted on another thread about systemic racism comes into play-- it would never have occurred to those children to fear the police, and there was not reason for them to, except that they are being taught to. Which, I think, increases the likelihood they'll have problems with the police and perpetuates the problems.

Sorry to keep snipping quotes out -- I fear I am creating walls of text that are easier digested if I pull out the preceding comments.

I think that is precisely the question.  What do we do about it?  And I think the first thing we do, as white people, is listen and try to empathize.  It isn't that every proposed solution is a good one per se.  Some I think are insane, and I have told my friends so.  It is, rather, that in order to understand what it's like for them, we have to hear where they are coming from.  And it certainly isn't that we cowtow to people.  Kneeling is fine if you feel moved to do so, but kneeling out of obligation or fear is at the same time weak and patronizing.  The black community doesn't need our symbolism.  They need our help, as Americans, to fix a system that needs reform.

Beyond that, I think elimination of no knock warrants and better police training would help.  As a white man I've noticed a troubling tendency of some in law enforcement to be bullies.  Most are not, obviously.  But some are.  I got rousted by a Marietta city police officer after a gig a couple of years ago.  He was banging his flashlight on my car window, yelling at me, acting like an idiot to be honest.  His partner looked embarrassed, but he didn't do anything to stop him.  I was polite and professional, which is to say, deferential and hat in hand and apologetic even though I had done nothing wrong, just to keep this man-child from escalating to physical violence.  Should I have had to be?  I played the gig with a state representative.  We dedicated a song to the mayor.  I could have made a phone call and ruined his world pretty quickly.  I chose not to because I know better than to exercise my rights on the side of the road.  I didn't want his childish bullying to escalate into me getting beaten or tasered or whatever.  But why should I have to endure such abuse from someone who is supposed to be a civil servant?

If that can happen to me, a white attorney with a doctorate degree and friends in high places, is it so far fetched to suggest that the experience of black people might be far, far worse than that?  So maybe we need fewer of the roid raging schoolyard bullies and more people who are well trained.  Or, perhaps, those who are well trained and mature and not idiots should speak up against those who are bullies.  There should be consequences for officers who behave like that.  Yet again, his partner said nothing.  Why not?  There was an entire line of cops 20 feet away who were supposed to be directing traffic but were instead chatting and cutting up.  Why didn't they say anything when the commotion started? 

Perhaps they did.  But not while he was misbehaving.  And if he had escalated things, we all know the other cops would have intervened on the officer's behalf, not mine.

So when we talk about systemic issues with police, that's a huge part of it.  We have militarized the police and turned the culture into an "us versus them" thing for so long now, despite the best training, you still have guys who act as if the badge and the gun gives them a license to treat those they serve like those they rule.  And when you are part of an underclass, that problem is amplified by orders of magnitude.
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Rob Morris

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2542 on: September 02, 2020, 02:14:15 PM »
Pastor Morris:
Both situations are complicated, with split-second, life-or-death judgment calls
Me:
No. It took more than 8 minutes for the officer to kill George Floyd. Nothing split-second about that.

Nothing? Have you ever tried to restrain a potentially lethal and chemically influenced person? How long do you think the elapsed time is between them laying passively on the ground and them with their hands around your throat?

I don’t agree with the officers decision. But I do think I can somewhat understand the thinking behind it. I think he had decided, I am not moving an inch until there is sufficient back up here to make sure that this person who has spent quite a bit of time resisting arrest can be safely handled.

David Garner

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2543 on: September 02, 2020, 02:20:24 PM »
Pastor Morris:
Both situations are complicated, with split-second, life-or-death judgment calls
Me:
No. It took more than 8 minutes for the officer to kill George Floyd. Nothing split-second about that.

Nothing? Have you ever tried to restrain a potentially lethal and chemically influenced person? How long do you think the elapsed time is between them laying passively on the ground and them with their hands around your throat?

I don’t agree with the officers decision. But I do think I can somewhat understand the thinking behind it. I think he had decided, I am not moving an inch until there is sufficient back up here to make sure that this person who has spent quite a bit of time resisting arrest can be safely handled.

He had backup there.  Why not cuff him and use the cuffs to restrain him?

I mean, Chauvin's partner asked him twice if they should move him on his side.  Bystanders were telling them he was unresponsive and warning they were going to kill him. 
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Rob Morris

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2544 on: September 02, 2020, 02:24:45 PM »
Mr. Garner,

I appreciate the exchange. I don’t feel “mystified” at the current tension between major elements of Black culture and law enforcement. I am only saddened that, in my view, very little of what we are currently seeing unfold will do anything to address the problem.

I do agree that far too often, law-enforcement officers have killed people, particularly Black people, with little or no consequence. That lamentable reality is undoubtedly a factor in current tensions.

I am absolutely in favor of lively debate over what policies and practices might be the result of or serve to further racial animus. I think you are 100% right in saying that no knock warrants are an example of the type of policy debate that should be happening. I genuinely wish that that were a topic being brought up by the voices currently leading the racial unrest we are seeing.

In my reading of our exchange, I don’t think that we actually disagree on very much, we are just each highlighting tricky aspects of an extremely complicated situation. That those aspects might seem to point in different directions doesn’t mean we disagree about the problem or its solutions.

Rob Morris

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2545 on: September 02, 2020, 02:25:50 PM »
Pastor Morris:
Both situations are complicated, with split-second, life-or-death judgment calls
Me:
No. It took more than 8 minutes for the officer to kill George Floyd. Nothing split-second about that.

Nothing? Have you ever tried to restrain a potentially lethal and chemically influenced person? How long do you think the elapsed time is between them laying passively on the ground and them with their hands around your throat?

I don’t agree with the officers decision. But I do think I can somewhat understand the thinking behind it. I think he had decided, I am not moving an inch until there is sufficient back up here to make sure that this person who has spent quite a bit of time resisting arrest can be safely handled.

He had backup there.  Why not cuff him and use the cuffs to restrain him?

I mean, Chauvin's partner asked him twice if they should move him on his side.  Bystanders were telling them he was unresponsive and warning they were going to kill him.

No disagreement from me. But I at least got to the point where I can sympathize with what thought process might have driven a brutal, and I believe criminal act.

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2546 on: September 02, 2020, 02:28:05 PM »
Just realized that could sound boastful. All I mean is that an action that was originally completely puzzling and horrifying to me at least has an understandable narrative in my mind now. Others‘ mileage may vary.

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2547 on: September 02, 2020, 02:30:44 PM »
Carefully and properly executed no knock warrants are a useful tool for law enforcement and beneficial to society in general.

I disagree. An artifact of the ‘war on drugs’ which introduces massive risk into an arrest.

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2548 on: September 02, 2020, 02:34:22 PM »
Agreed, it is a symbiotic relationship. The fear didn't generate out of thin air. The question for me is what course of action is most likely to result in black people not fearing the police? That is, what will reverse the cycle of self-fulfilling prophesy? What I posted on another thread about systemic racism comes into play-- it would never have occurred to those children to fear the police, and there was not reason for them to, except that they are being taught to. Which, I think, increases the likelihood they'll have problems with the police and perpetuates the problems.

Sorry to keep snipping quotes out -- I fear I am creating walls of text that are easier digested if I pull out the preceding comments.

I think that is precisely the question.  What do we do about it?  And I think the first thing we do, as white people, is listen and try to empathize.  It isn't that every proposed solution is a good one per se.  Some I think are insane, and I have told my friends so.  It is, rather, that in order to understand what it's like for them, we have to hear where they are coming from.  And it certainly isn't that we cowtow to people.  Kneeling is fine if you feel moved to do so, but kneeling out of obligation or fear is at the same time weak and patronizing.  The black community doesn't need our symbolism.  They need our help, as Americans, to fix a system that needs reform.

Beyond that, I think elimination of no knock warrants and better police training would help.  As a white man I've noticed a troubling tendency of some in law enforcement to be bullies.  Most are not, obviously.  But some are.  I got rousted by a Marietta city police officer after a gig a couple of years ago.  He was banging his flashlight on my car window, yelling at me, acting like an idiot to be honest.  His partner looked embarrassed, but he didn't do anything to stop him.  I was polite and professional, which is to say, deferential and hat in hand and apologetic even though I had done nothing wrong, just to keep this man-child from escalating to physical violence.  Should I have had to be?  I played the gig with a state representative.  We dedicated a song to the mayor.  I could have made a phone call and ruined his world pretty quickly.  I chose not to because I know better than to exercise my rights on the side of the road.  I didn't want his childish bullying to escalate into me getting beaten or tasered or whatever.  But why should I have to endure such abuse from someone who is supposed to be a civil servant?

If that can happen to me, a white attorney with a doctorate degree and friends in high places, is it so far fetched to suggest that the experience of black people might be far, far worse than that?  So maybe we need fewer of the roid raging schoolyard bullies and more people who are well trained.  Or, perhaps, those who are well trained and mature and not idiots should speak up against those who are bullies.  There should be consequences for officers who behave like that.  Yet again, his partner said nothing.  Why not?  There was an entire line of cops 20 feet away who were supposed to be directing traffic but were instead chatting and cutting up.  Why didn't they say anything when the commotion started? 

Perhaps they did.  But not while he was misbehaving.  And if he had escalated things, we all know the other cops would have intervened on the officer's behalf, not mine.

So when we talk about systemic issues with police, that's a huge part of it.  We have militarized the police and turned the culture into an "us versus them" thing for so long now, despite the best training, you still have guys who act as if the badge and the gun gives them a license to treat those they serve like those they rule.  And when you are part of an underclass, that problem is amplified by orders of magnitude.
Agreed on listening, and agreed on no-knock warrants. I think in practice they empower the state to an unreasonable degree even if in principle I can imagine situations in which they might really be considered necessary. I also agree on the idea that some cops let power go to their heads and acts like tough guys and bullies. There are no professions without jerks who malfeasance does untold damage, a point you've made elsewhere regarding doctors.

But consider what you as a highly educated, middle-class white male endured. Now image describing the exact same scenario, down to the tiniest detail, but instead typing in that you saw happening to a black man. Would the people in this forum, or people in general, assume that a police officer behaving like that to a black man was in whole or in part a function of race? I believe they would. They would almost have to. And they would be empirically wrong. My concern is that the race-based explanation of events has become the default explanation of events. I think that assumption does more to perpetuate racial problems than almost anything else. That's why I always ask for evidence beyond mere assumptions. Sometimes I think that the people denying the role of false assumptions are the ones who really aren't listening to what people are saying. 

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #2549 on: September 02, 2020, 02:38:48 PM »
Pastor Morris:
Both situations are complicated, with split-second, life-or-death judgment calls
Me:
No. It took more than 8 minutes for the officer to kill George Floyd. Nothing split-second about that.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/officer-charged-george-floyds-death-argues-drug-overdose/story?id=72711824