Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 524287 times)

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19534
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1365 on: July 30, 2020, 10:19:27 AM »
Peter:
You don't know any fervid loyalists or partisans; you accept on faith that they are the sort of people you think they are-- prejudiced, ignorant, and likely to turn "mostly peaceful" at the drop of a hat-- because of your blind loyalty to bogus news and opinion sources.
Me:
Peter, you sound desperate and foolish. You don’t know who it is that I know. Meanwhile, you slander people that I know very well, hundreds of people in the news media who try very hard to get the story right, to tell the truth. “Bogus news”? Be honest. Speak the slogan of the guy you want in high office. “Fake news.”
You don’t like it that my former colleagues point out the eccentricities and oddities of the current president. Well, those eccentricities and oddities happen to be true things. You don’t like it, don’t read it. Stick to your Fox News Or wherever you think you can find truth. Stick to your blind loyalty to the idea that federal judges can change all of the abortion laws in the country. Stick to your paranoid dislike of public education and your acceptance of the conspiracy theory that it’s all run by liberals out to run roughshod over your children.
Yes, I have my “opinion sources” that help me understand things. You have yours. So what?
Good grief.
Yes, I'm ever so desperate and foolish. I don't slander people in the mainstream media. I describe their work (not them personally) accurately without the bias of being friends with them personally. You spend more time reading, thinking, and posting about Trump than any Trump supporter or Trump-hater I know, and you still manage to have no idea what you're talking about. I'll leave you alone. 

Jim Butler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1366 on: July 30, 2020, 11:05:20 AM »

Peter, you sound desperate and foolish. You don’t know who it is that I know. Meanwhile, you slander people that I know very well, hundreds of people in the news media who try very hard to get the story right, to tell the truth.

So why did you post a poorly sourced blog from the NY Times that I managed to fact check in a half hour?

Why haven't you responded to the links I gave you about whether or not doctors believe that children should return to school? (I've only asked you this question three times.)

You like to point to quacks like Stella Immanuel and say, "See who the right likes!" But when faced with solid information that contradicts your biases, you shut down and refuse to respond.

I agree that there are "hundreds of people in the news media who try very hard to get the story right, to tell the truth." You, unfortunately, are not one of them.
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

Mike Gehlhausen

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1367 on: July 30, 2020, 11:50:49 AM »
Herman Cain has died from complications of coronavirus.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/herman-cain-dead-after-battle-with-coronavirus

Jim Butler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1368 on: July 30, 2020, 12:28:11 PM »
And I will not expect the kind of consistency and fairness that might be required if you would say similar things about those who only read and post from, shall we say, Molly Hemingway, or Issues, etc.
I’m now trying to follow some of your advice, therefore I must continue to pretend I do not see the posts of jebutler.


You mention Mollie Hemingway. You might be interested in knowing that, many years ago, I wrote an article that John Hannah published on _Daystar_ that fact checked one of her articles and found it wanting. I can't say much for the Issues, Etc. crowd, I rarely, if ever, listen.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I rarely take anyone's word for anything. I like Reagan, "Trust, but verify."

But you will ignore me from now on. Of course you will. Because you know everything about me. Except you don't.

The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

RDPreus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
    • View Profile
    • Christ For Us
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1369 on: July 30, 2020, 01:07:59 PM »
Rev. Austin has written here on this thread that the recently deceased U.S. Representative John Lewis was “as great a Christian hero of our time as we will ever see.”  Lewis gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago.  He spoke to the audience as his “brothers and sisters” and said that we are a “people of faith.”  Then he added, “It does not matter whether you worship one God, many gods, or no gods.  We are all brothers and sisters.”  Later on, near the end of the benediction, he said that we must believe in one another.  We need not all believe in the same God, but we must believe in one another.

Rev. Austin, this is what I found after spending about a half an hour of my time searching the internet to find something from John Lewis that would indicate what his religion was.  I could not find anything he had said about Jesus as the Savior of sinners who died for us and rose again.  He said much about Jesus’s moral teaching, but I was not able to find anything he said about who Jesus is and what he has done to save us sinners from our sins.  You know much more about this man than I do.  Perhaps you can share with me something Lewis said that actually communicated the gospel of Jesus Christ.


James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1370 on: July 30, 2020, 01:20:30 PM »
Rev. Austin has written here on this thread that the recently deceased U.S. Representative John Lewis was “as great a Christian hero of our time as we will ever see.”  Lewis gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago.  He spoke to the audience as his “brothers and sisters” and said that we are a “people of faith.”  Then he added, “It does not matter whether you worship one God, many gods, or no gods.  We are all brothers and sisters.”  Later on, near the end of the benediction, he said that we must believe in one another.  We need not all believe in the same God, but we must believe in one another.

Rev. Austin, this is what I found after spending about a half an hour of my time searching the internet to find something from John Lewis that would indicate what his religion was.  I could not find anything he had said about Jesus as the Savior of sinners who died for us and rose again.  He said much about Jesus’s moral teaching, but I was not able to find anything he said about who Jesus is and what he has done to save us sinners from our sins.  You know much more about this man than I do.  Perhaps you can share with me something Lewis said that actually communicated the gospel of Jesus Christ.


I don't think that it's useful to ask whether Congressman Lewis meets any particular definition of being a "Christian."  We should leave those matters to God.  Raising them here will do little more than spark a side-spat with Pr. Austin.  That would be tedious indeed.

RDPreus

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
    • View Profile
    • Christ For Us
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1371 on: July 30, 2020, 01:38:37 PM »
Rev. Austin has written here on this thread that the recently deceased U.S. Representative John Lewis was “as great a Christian hero of our time as we will ever see.”  Lewis gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago.  He spoke to the audience as his “brothers and sisters” and said that we are a “people of faith.”  Then he added, “It does not matter whether you worship one God, many gods, or no gods.  We are all brothers and sisters.”  Later on, near the end of the benediction, he said that we must believe in one another.  We need not all believe in the same God, but we must believe in one another.

Rev. Austin, this is what I found after spending about a half an hour of my time searching the internet to find something from John Lewis that would indicate what his religion was.  I could not find anything he had said about Jesus as the Savior of sinners who died for us and rose again.  He said much about Jesus’s moral teaching, but I was not able to find anything he said about who Jesus is and what he has done to save us sinners from our sins.  You know much more about this man than I do.  Perhaps you can share with me something Lewis said that actually communicated the gospel of Jesus Christ.


I don't think that it's useful to ask whether Congressman Lewis meets any particular definition of being a "Christian."  We should leave those matters to God.  Raising them here will do little more than spark a side-spat with Pr. Austin.  That would be tedious indeed.

Well, I sure don't want to start a side-spat, but I do think that there is a confusion of categories going on.  Civil doctrine is pawned off as a Christian proclamation.  Call it the social gospel.  The transcendent and eternal truths of the gospel of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection are translated into temporal political categories.  The gospel disappears into moralism.  Call Lewis a hero.  Fine.  But to modify that with the word "Christian" claims for political dogma a Christian pedigree.  As a conservative Republican, I was offended by all of the references to Mitt Romney's "faith" during the Republican convention of 2012. 

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1372 on: July 30, 2020, 01:43:38 PM »
Rev. Austin has written here on this thread that the recently deceased U.S. Representative John Lewis was “as great a Christian hero of our time as we will ever see.”  Lewis gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago.  He spoke to the audience as his “brothers and sisters” and said that we are a “people of faith.”  Then he added, “It does not matter whether you worship one God, many gods, or no gods.  We are all brothers and sisters.”  Later on, near the end of the benediction, he said that we must believe in one another.  We need not all believe in the same God, but we must believe in one another.

Rev. Austin, this is what I found after spending about a half an hour of my time searching the internet to find something from John Lewis that would indicate what his religion was.  I could not find anything he had said about Jesus as the Savior of sinners who died for us and rose again.  He said much about Jesus’s moral teaching, but I was not able to find anything he said about who Jesus is and what he has done to save us sinners from our sins.  You know much more about this man than I do.  Perhaps you can share with me something Lewis said that actually communicated the gospel of Jesus Christ.


I don't think that it's useful to ask whether Congressman Lewis meets any particular definition of being a "Christian."  We should leave those matters to God.  Raising them here will do little more than spark a side-spat with Pr. Austin.  That would be tedious indeed.

Well, I sure don't want to start a side-spat, but I do think that there is a confusion of categories going on.  Civil doctrine is pawned off as a Christian proclamation.  Call it the social gospel.  The transcendent and eternal truths of the gospel of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection are translated into temporal political categories.  The gospel disappears into moralism.  Call Lewis a hero.  Fine.  But to modify that with the word "Christian" claims for political dogma a Christian pedigree.  As a conservative Republican, I was offended by all of the references to Mitt Romney's "faith" during the Republican convention of 2012.


I get it. But you know how these things tend to play out on this forum.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19534
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1373 on: July 30, 2020, 01:43:54 PM »
Rev. Austin has written here on this thread that the recently deceased U.S. Representative John Lewis was “as great a Christian hero of our time as we will ever see.”  Lewis gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago.  He spoke to the audience as his “brothers and sisters” and said that we are a “people of faith.”  Then he added, “It does not matter whether you worship one God, many gods, or no gods.  We are all brothers and sisters.”  Later on, near the end of the benediction, he said that we must believe in one another.  We need not all believe in the same God, but we must believe in one another.

Rev. Austin, this is what I found after spending about a half an hour of my time searching the internet to find something from John Lewis that would indicate what his religion was.  I could not find anything he had said about Jesus as the Savior of sinners who died for us and rose again.  He said much about Jesus’s moral teaching, but I was not able to find anything he said about who Jesus is and what he has done to save us sinners from our sins.  You know much more about this man than I do.  Perhaps you can share with me something Lewis said that actually communicated the gospel of Jesus Christ.


I don't think that it's useful to ask whether Congressman Lewis meets any particular definition of being a "Christian."  We should leave those matters to God.  Raising them here will do little more than spark a side-spat with Pr. Austin.  That would be tedious indeed.

Well, I sure don't want to start a side-spat, but I do think that there is a confusion of categories going on.  Civil doctrine is pawned off as a Christian proclamation.  Call it the social gospel.  The transcendent and eternal truths of the gospel of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection are translated into temporal political categories.  The gospel disappears into moralism.  Call Lewis a hero.  Fine.  But to modify that with the word "Christian" claims for political dogma a Christian pedigree.  As a conservative Republican, I was offended by all of the references to Mitt Romney's "faith" during the Republican convention of 2012.
I'm sure when some preacher talks at Trump's funeral about a wonderful Christian example, distinctions and definitions will suddenly matter. And my guess is that RDPreus will be saying the same things and the people taking him to task will have reversed course entirely.

Mike Gehlhausen

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1374 on: July 30, 2020, 01:53:04 PM »
I'm sure when some preacher talks at Trump's funeral about a wonderful Christian example, distinctions and definitions will suddenly matter. And my guess is that RDPreus will be saying the same things and the people taking him to task will have reversed course entirely.

I won't be, and I doubt that James Gale will either.  I get Pr. Preus' point, and discussion of how Christian faith lived out in personal heroism can nevertheless lead to a muddled Gospel message is certainly something to discuss in this forum.

Later. Today is not the day to do so.

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1375 on: July 30, 2020, 02:04:49 PM »
I'm sure when some preacher talks at Trump's funeral about a wonderful Christian example, distinctions and definitions will suddenly matter. And my guess is that RDPreus will be saying the same things and the people taking him to task will have reversed course entirely.

I won't be, and I doubt that James Gale will either.  I get Pr. Preus' point, and discussion of how Christian faith lived out in personal heroism can nevertheless lead to a muddled Gospel message is certainly something to discuss in this forum.

Later. Today is not the day to do so.


Agreed. Today we honor a civil rights leader and hero.

Jim Butler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1376 on: July 30, 2020, 02:43:10 PM »
Rev. Austin has written here on this thread that the recently deceased U.S. Representative John Lewis was “as great a Christian hero of our time as we will ever see.”  Lewis gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago.  He spoke to the audience as his “brothers and sisters” and said that we are a “people of faith.”  Then he added, “It does not matter whether you worship one God, many gods, or no gods.  We are all brothers and sisters.”  Later on, near the end of the benediction, he said that we must believe in one another.  We need not all believe in the same God, but we must believe in one another.

Rev. Austin, this is what I found after spending about a half an hour of my time searching the internet to find something from John Lewis that would indicate what his religion was.  I could not find anything he had said about Jesus as the Savior of sinners who died for us and rose again.  He said much about Jesus’s moral teaching, but I was not able to find anything he said about who Jesus is and what he has done to save us sinners from our sins.  You know much more about this man than I do.  Perhaps you can share with me something Lewis said that actually communicated the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't think that it's useful to ask whether Congressman Lewis meets any particular definition of being a "Christian."  We should leave those matters to God.  Raising them here will do little more than spark a side-spat with Pr. Austin.  That would be tedious indeed.

Well, I sure don't want to start a side-spat, but I do think that there is a confusion of categories going on.  Civil doctrine is pawned off as a Christian proclamation.  Call it the social gospel.  The transcendent and eternal truths of the gospel of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection are translated into temporal political categories.  The gospel disappears into moralism.  Call Lewis a hero.  Fine.  But to modify that with the word "Christian" claims for political dogma a Christian pedigree.  As a conservative Republican, I was offended by all of the references to Mitt Romney's "faith" during the Republican convention of 2012.

Many years ago, I read an article by Lyle Schaller in which he noted that different Christian church bodies tend to center on different persons of the Trinity. LCMS Lutherans, like most other Evangelical churches, center on God the Son and his death and resurrection. Charismatic churches obviously focus on the work of the Spirit. Progressive churches--and the American Baptist Church and National Baptist Churches fall into this category--emphasize God the Father.

If this is right (I think it is) then we can understand Lewis' words at the National Prayer Breakfast. His emphasis is on a God who is Father to all.

The other part is would be his understanding of Christ and culture. I'm sure he would be a "Christ transforms culture" person--it is our job as Christians to change the world into a more biblical model especially in terms of social justice issues.

The problem is that those social justice issues--important as they are--are not necessarily Christian. They all come under the first use of the commandments. Slavery is wrong regardless of one's faith or lack thereof. Jim Crow laws were objectively evil, even for Democrats like LBJ, Bull Conner, George Wallace, etc., whether or not they said they were Christian or Hindu. That led to alliances that were broader than Christian and probably impacted his thought.

Don't know if my thinking is correct or not, but it would help us understand why he said what he did.

As it is, he was a great hero and our nation is richer for his having lived.
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

John_Hannah

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1377 on: July 30, 2020, 03:01:29 PM »
And I will not expect the kind of consistency and fairness that might be required if you would say similar things about those who only read and post from, shall we say, Molly Hemingway, or Issues, etc.
I’m now trying to follow some of your advice, therefore I must continue to pretend I do not see the posts of jebutler.


You mention Mollie Hemingway. You might be interested in knowing that, many years ago, I wrote an article that John Hannah published on _Daystar_ that fact checked one of her articles and found it wanting. I can't say much for the Issues, Etc. crowd, I rarely, if ever, listen.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I rarely take anyone's word for anything. I like Reagan, "Trust, but verify."

But you will ignore me from now on. Of course you will. Because you know everything about me. Except you don't.

JIM,

I would have been happy to do it but I don't believe that I did. I was a reader of Daystar but not in the editorial loop. You must be thinking of someone else.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Mike Gehlhausen

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1378 on: July 30, 2020, 03:53:26 PM »
President Obama used the John Lewis funeral as an opportunity to suggest eliminating the filibuster.

Quote
Beyond that, Obama called for legislation to ensure all Americans are automatically registered to vote, grant Congressional representation to Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico, make election day a federal holiday and end partisan gerrymandering.

“And if all this takes eliminating the filibuster, another Jim Crow relic, in order to secure the God-given rights of every American, then that's what we should do,” Obama said to applause inside Atlanta’s Ebenezer Baptist Church.

Obama is perhaps the most prominent political voice to call for an end to the filibuster, the Senate's rule requiring 60 votes in order to end debate on most legislation and advance it to a vote. The practice, which is not enshrined in the Constitution, has long allowed the Senate's minority party some say in what legislation is passed through the chamber.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/30/barack-obama-john-lewis-filibuster-388600

I don't know whether to consider Obama's calling the filibuster a "Jim Crow relic" a cheap shot or political genius.  The filibuster was indeed used to block civil rights reform.  However, it was used before that, and it has definitely been used a lot more recently than it actually was during the Jim Crow era.

Perhaps given the parties' use of the filibuster more often, this is a good change.  It will be difficult to explain "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" to future generations though, and poor Jimmy Stewart would have been railroaded without it.

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
    • View Profile
Re: Election 2020
« Reply #1379 on: July 30, 2020, 05:19:04 PM »
President Obama used the John Lewis funeral as an opportunity to suggest eliminating the filibuster.

Quote
Beyond that, Obama called for legislation to ensure all Americans are automatically registered to vote, grant Congressional representation to Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico, make election day a federal holiday and end partisan gerrymandering.

“And if all this takes eliminating the filibuster, another Jim Crow relic, in order to secure the God-given rights of every American, then that's what we should do,” Obama said to applause inside Atlanta’s Ebenezer Baptist Church.

Obama is perhaps the most prominent political voice to call for an end to the filibuster, the Senate's rule requiring 60 votes in order to end debate on most legislation and advance it to a vote. The practice, which is not enshrined in the Constitution, has long allowed the Senate's minority party some say in what legislation is passed through the chamber.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/30/barack-obama-john-lewis-filibuster-388600

I don't know whether to consider Obama's calling the filibuster a "Jim Crow relic" a cheap shot or political genius.  The filibuster was indeed used to block civil rights reform.  However, it was used before that, and it has definitely been used a lot more recently than it actually was during the Jim Crow era.

Perhaps given the parties' use of the filibuster more often, this is a good change.  It will be difficult to explain "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" to future generations though, and poor Jimmy Stewart would have been railroaded without it.


The filibuster (unlimited debate) goes back to the Senate's very beginning.  It's been used for good and for ill.  In recent times, senators from both parties have used it to prevent enactment by the other party of legislation that lacks broad support.  The result is often deep frustration on the part of the thwarted majority.


President Obama (in my view) was way, way, way off base to turn a Christian funeral into a political rally.  (He should remember how that tawdry tactic played out after Senator Wellstone's funeral.)  He obviously is convinced that VP Biden will win the WH and that the Democrats will win the Senate.  For now, the polls back up that belief.  But in this crazy year, I wouldn't feel too certain about much of anything. 


Would anyone be all that shocked to see a 51-49 GOP Senate rely upon the Obama/Biden/Schumer argument in eliminating the filibuster in order to enact re-elected President Trump's deeply divisive agenda?