Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 379058 times)

Voelker

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #795 on: May 21, 2020, 01:09:27 PM »
At least we haven't fallen that far, but we're on the way.
It can be persuasively argued that that's what's been going on since at least the Kennedy/Nixon race. Australia may only be catching up.

RandyBosch

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #796 on: May 21, 2020, 01:15:13 PM »
An advantage I find in mail-in ballots is that I can take my time to vote. I use the biographies of the candidates that our election board sends out prior to voting. I can reread them as I fill out the ballot and thus make better informed choice. I don't recall ever doing that when I went to a polling booth. Especially if there was a line waiting, there was some pressure - put on by myself - to fill out the ballot quickly so that the next person could get in and vote.

That's strange.  Prior to every election during our residency in Arizona, we received a voter's information guide from a bona fide neutral fair campaign practices commission which included biographies and position statements by every candidate who submitted them.  These arrived whether we voted in person or voted by mail.  State media also provided on-line equivalents.

Perhaps it's your County that needs a little encouragement?

D. Engebretson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #797 on: May 21, 2020, 01:23:54 PM »
I'm still curious from our Democratic friends what the presumptive candidate Joe Biden has to offer that should cause any of us to reconsider and vote for him.  I don't hear much about him or from him, although I realize the national election is still over 5 months away.  There has been some concern about his abilities.  Unfortunately his all too frequent verbal stumbling, which has long characterized him in one way or another, has served to insert some question regarding his fitness for the office. Do those who support Biden feel that he is fully up to the task?

I bet he'd threaten to take you outside and kick your a__ for asking such a horsesh__ question. :)

If you all are not following the Twitter account "President Joe Biden (So-Called)," you should be.

https://twitter.com/biden4pres

I know the Twitter account is not actually Joe Biden.  But are the tweets actual quotes of Biden?
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David Garner

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #798 on: May 21, 2020, 02:34:26 PM »
I'm still curious from our Democratic friends what the presumptive candidate Joe Biden has to offer that should cause any of us to reconsider and vote for him.  I don't hear much about him or from him, although I realize the national election is still over 5 months away.  There has been some concern about his abilities.  Unfortunately his all too frequent verbal stumbling, which has long characterized him in one way or another, has served to insert some question regarding his fitness for the office. Do those who support Biden feel that he is fully up to the task?

I bet he'd threaten to take you outside and kick your a__ for asking such a horsesh__ question. :)

If you all are not following the Twitter account "President Joe Biden (So-Called)," you should be.

https://twitter.com/biden4pres

I know the Twitter account is not actually Joe Biden.  But are the tweets actual quotes of Biden?

No.

And what makes it hilarious is this -- they could be, and it would be hard for you to know the difference.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

RPG

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #799 on: May 21, 2020, 02:42:06 PM »
I'm still curious from our Democratic friends what the presumptive candidate Joe Biden has to offer that should cause any of us to reconsider and vote for him.  I don't hear much about him or from him, although I realize the national election is still over 5 months away.  There has been some concern about his abilities.  Unfortunately his all too frequent verbal stumbling, which has long characterized him in one way or another, has served to insert some question regarding his fitness for the office. Do those who support Biden feel that he is fully up to the task?

I bet he'd threaten to take you outside and kick your a__ for asking such a horsesh__ question. :)

If you all are not following the Twitter account "President Joe Biden (So-Called)," you should be.

https://twitter.com/biden4pres

I know the Twitter account is not actually Joe Biden.  But are the tweets actual quotes of Biden?

No.

And what makes it hilarious is this -- they could be, and it would be hard for you to know the difference.
The Biden Insult Bot is also rather amusing.
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James_Gale

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #800 on: May 21, 2020, 03:25:29 PM »
I'm still curious from our Democratic friends what the presumptive candidate Joe Biden has to offer that should cause any of us to reconsider and vote for him.  I don't hear much about him or from him, although I realize the national election is still over 5 months away.  There has been some concern about his abilities.  Unfortunately his all too frequent verbal stumbling, which has long characterized him in one way or another, has served to insert some question regarding his fitness for the office. Do those who support Biden feel that he is fully up to the task?

I bet he'd threaten to take you outside and kick your a__ for asking such a horsesh__ question. :)

If you all are not following the Twitter account "President Joe Biden (So-Called)," you should be.

https://twitter.com/biden4pres

I know the Twitter account is not actually Joe Biden.  But are the tweets actual quotes of Biden?

No.

And what makes it hilarious is this -- they could be, and it would be hard for you to know the difference.


These strike me as a bit too polished to be actual Biden quotes.  They perhaps could pass as the product of a social-media aide executing oral direction by Biden to post something on Twitter.

James J Eivan

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #801 on: May 21, 2020, 03:59:59 PM »
An advantage I find in mail-in ballots is that I can take my time to vote. I use the biographies of the candidates that our election board sends out prior to voting. I can reread them as I fill out the ballot and thus make better informed choice. I don't recall ever doing that when I went to a polling booth. Especially if there was a line waiting, there was some pressure - put on by myself - to fill out the ballot quickly so that the next person could get in and vote.
For years those voting guides have been used to successfully  assist voters in the poling place. Nothing has changed ... except possibly your age ... making you eligible for the vote by mail option

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #802 on: May 21, 2020, 04:21:18 PM »
I use the biographies of the candidates that our election board sends out prior to voting.


Then you're already prepared before you show up at the polling place.

 ::)
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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #803 on: May 21, 2020, 04:28:59 PM »
An advantage I find in mail-in ballots is that I can take my time to vote. I use the biographies of the candidates that our election board sends out prior to voting. I can reread them as I fill out the ballot and thus make better informed choice. I don't recall ever doing that when I went to a polling booth. Especially if there was a line waiting, there was some pressure - put on by myself - to fill out the ballot quickly so that the next person could get in and vote.

Well, that's your problem, then. At least in California, we always got a "sample ballot" along with the biographical material, etc. My practice was always to do my homework, fill out my absentee ballot as if it were the real one, then take it with me to the polls and mark the real ballot accordingly. No need for it to take very long at all, or to feel pressure to fill out the ballot quickly.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #804 on: May 21, 2020, 04:33:51 PM »
At least we haven't fallen that far, but we're on the way.
It can be persuasively argued that that's what's been going on since at least the Kennedy/Nixon race. Australia may only be catching up.

In comedian-mimic David Frye's Richard Nixon Superstar from 1971, Teddy Kennedy describes how the voters of Massachusetts study the issues and campaign materials, then they go into the voting booth and cast their ballot "for the best looking candidate."  Vice President Humphrey immediately jumps in, "If you think Nixon and Agnew were better looking than we were..."

Pax, Steven+
Who knows that voter intimidation of nursing home residents with absentee ballots has been a real thing.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

JEdwards

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #805 on: May 21, 2020, 04:48:36 PM »
My problem with mail-in voting is not so much the threat of fraud but of voter intimidation. The secret/private vote is almost as important as the one man, one vote principle. With polling booths, who you tell your friends/family/coworkers/boss/ etc. you're voting for and who you actually vote for might be different. When the ballots are mailed out, every domineering mother, abusive husband, boss, union rep, mafia rep, etc. knows that you could, if you wanted, show him or her your completed ballot. Your refusal to do so is thus entirely suspect. Much better to have a system in which nobody can see anyone else's ballot.
Interestingly, for the first century after the founding voting was not secret.  I was unaware of the following history until I read this summary by Justice Scalia in one of his opinions:

Voting was public until 1888 when the States began to adopt the Australian secret ballot. See Burson v. Freeman , 504 U. S. 191, 203 (1992) (plurality opinion). We have acknowledged the existence of a First Amendment interest in voting, see, e.g. , Burdick v. Takushi , 504 U. S. 428 (1992) , but we have never said that it includes the right to vote anonymously. The history of voting in the United States completely undermines that claim.

Initially, the Colonies mostly continued the English traditions of voting by a show of hands or by voice— viva voce voting. Burson , supra , at 200; E. Evans, A History of the Australian Ballot System in the United States 1–6 (1917) (Evans). One scholar described the viva voce system as follows:

“ ‘The election judges, who were magistrates, sat upon a bench with their clerks before them. Where practicable, it was customary for the candidates to be present in person, and to occupy a seat at the side of the judges. As the voter appeared, his name was called out in a loud voice. The judges inquired, “John Jones (or Smith), for whom do you vote?”—for governor, or whatever was the office to be filled. He replied by proclaiming the name of his favorite. Then the clerks enrolled the vote, and the judges announced it as enrolled. The representative of the candidate for whom he voted arose, bowed, and thanked him aloud; and his partisans often applauded.’ ” Id. , at 5 (quoting J. Wise, The End of An Era 55–56 (1899)).

See also R. Dinkin, A Study of Elections in the Original Thirteen States, 1776–1789, p. 101 (1982) (Dinkin).

Although there was variation, the election official would ordinarily compile a poll with the name and residence of each voter, and the name of the candidate for whom he voted. See C. Bishop, History of Elections in the American Colonies 160–64 (1893) (Bishop); P. Argersinger, Structure, Process, and Party: Essays in American Political History 47 (1992) (Argersinger). To prevent fraud, the Colonies in Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey adopted the English rule that “copies of the poll must be delivered on demand to persons who were willing to pay a reasonable charge for the labor of writing them.” Bishop 186. Some colonies allowed candidates to demand a copy of the poll, ibid. , and required the legislature to examine the poll in a contested election, id. , at 188–189. Thus, as in this case, the government not only publicly collected identifying information about who voted and for which candidate, it also disclosed that information to the public.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 04:50:08 PM by JEdwards »

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #806 on: May 21, 2020, 05:17:14 PM »
My problem with mail-in voting is not so much the threat of fraud but of voter intimidation. The secret/private vote is almost as important as the one man, one vote principle. With polling booths, who you tell your friends/family/coworkers/boss/ etc. you're voting for and who you actually vote for might be different. When the ballots are mailed out, every domineering mother, abusive husband, boss, union rep, mafia rep, etc. knows that you could, if you wanted, show him or her your completed ballot. Your refusal to do so is thus entirely suspect. Much better to have a system in which nobody can see anyone else's ballot.
Interestingly, for the first century after the founding voting was not secret.  I was unaware of the following history until I read this summary by Justice Scalia in one of his opinions:

Voting was public until 1888 when the States began to adopt the Australian secret ballot. See Burson v. Freeman , 504 U. S. 191, 203 (1992) (plurality opinion). We have acknowledged the existence of a First Amendment interest in voting, see, e.g. , Burdick v. Takushi , 504 U. S. 428 (1992) , but we have never said that it includes the right to vote anonymously. The history of voting in the United States completely undermines that claim.

Initially, the Colonies mostly continued the English traditions of voting by a show of hands or by voice— viva voce voting. Burson , supra , at 200; E. Evans, A History of the Australian Ballot System in the United States 1–6 (1917) (Evans). One scholar described the viva voce system as follows:

“ ‘The election judges, who were magistrates, sat upon a bench with their clerks before them. Where practicable, it was customary for the candidates to be present in person, and to occupy a seat at the side of the judges. As the voter appeared, his name was called out in a loud voice. The judges inquired, “John Jones (or Smith), for whom do you vote?”—for governor, or whatever was the office to be filled. He replied by proclaiming the name of his favorite. Then the clerks enrolled the vote, and the judges announced it as enrolled. The representative of the candidate for whom he voted arose, bowed, and thanked him aloud; and his partisans often applauded.’ ” Id. , at 5 (quoting J. Wise, The End of An Era 55–56 (1899)).

See also R. Dinkin, A Study of Elections in the Original Thirteen States, 1776–1789, p. 101 (1982) (Dinkin).

Although there was variation, the election official would ordinarily compile a poll with the name and residence of each voter, and the name of the candidate for whom he voted. See C. Bishop, History of Elections in the American Colonies 160–64 (1893) (Bishop); P. Argersinger, Structure, Process, and Party: Essays in American Political History 47 (1992) (Argersinger). To prevent fraud, the Colonies in Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey adopted the English rule that “copies of the poll must be delivered on demand to persons who were willing to pay a reasonable charge for the labor of writing them.” Bishop 186. Some colonies allowed candidates to demand a copy of the poll, ibid. , and required the legislature to examine the poll in a contested election, id. , at 188–189. Thus, as in this case, the government not only publicly collected identifying information about who voted and for which candidate, it also disclosed that information to the public.


Cool!  Let's do that again!!!

Voelker

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #807 on: May 21, 2020, 05:37:42 PM »
My problem with mail-in voting is not so much the threat of fraud but of voter intimidation. The secret/private vote is almost as important as the one man, one vote principle. With polling booths, who you tell your friends/family/coworkers/boss/ etc. you're voting for and who you actually vote for might be different. When the ballots are mailed out, every domineering mother, abusive husband, boss, union rep, mafia rep, etc. knows that you could, if you wanted, show him or her your completed ballot. Your refusal to do so is thus entirely suspect. Much better to have a system in which nobody can see anyone else's ballot.
Interestingly, for the first century after the founding voting was not secret.  I was unaware of the following history until I read this summary by Justice Scalia in one of his opinions:

Voting was public until 1888 when the States began to adopt the Australian secret ballot. See Burson v. Freeman , 504 U. S. 191, 203 (1992) (plurality opinion). We have acknowledged the existence of a First Amendment interest in voting, see, e.g. , Burdick v. Takushi , 504 U. S. 428 (1992) , but we have never said that it includes the right to vote anonymously. The history of voting in the United States completely undermines that claim.

Initially, the Colonies mostly continued the English traditions of voting by a show of hands or by voice— viva voce voting. Burson , supra , at 200; E. Evans, A History of the Australian Ballot System in the United States 1–6 (1917) (Evans). One scholar described the viva voce system as follows:

“ ‘The election judges, who were magistrates, sat upon a bench with their clerks before them. Where practicable, it was customary for the candidates to be present in person, and to occupy a seat at the side of the judges. As the voter appeared, his name was called out in a loud voice. The judges inquired, “John Jones (or Smith), for whom do you vote?”—for governor, or whatever was the office to be filled. He replied by proclaiming the name of his favorite. Then the clerks enrolled the vote, and the judges announced it as enrolled. The representative of the candidate for whom he voted arose, bowed, and thanked him aloud; and his partisans often applauded.’ ” Id. , at 5 (quoting J. Wise, The End of An Era 55–56 (1899)).

See also R. Dinkin, A Study of Elections in the Original Thirteen States, 1776–1789, p. 101 (1982) (Dinkin).

Although there was variation, the election official would ordinarily compile a poll with the name and residence of each voter, and the name of the candidate for whom he voted. See C. Bishop, History of Elections in the American Colonies 160–64 (1893) (Bishop); P. Argersinger, Structure, Process, and Party: Essays in American Political History 47 (1992) (Argersinger). To prevent fraud, the Colonies in Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey adopted the English rule that “copies of the poll must be delivered on demand to persons who were willing to pay a reasonable charge for the labor of writing them.” Bishop 186. Some colonies allowed candidates to demand a copy of the poll, ibid. , and required the legislature to examine the poll in a contested election, id. , at 188–189. Thus, as in this case, the government not only publicly collected identifying information about who voted and for which candidate, it also disclosed that information to the public.


Cool!  Let's do that again!!!
Not cool. The resulting election-related violence and vandalism would be truly awful, and would — given what we've seen in recent years — be almost entirely visited upon those voting in a rightward direction.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #808 on: May 21, 2020, 06:19:17 PM »
So you’re saying the push to change the way we vote is reactionary?😉

Voelker

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #809 on: May 21, 2020, 06:28:28 PM »
So you’re saying the push to change the way we vote is reactionary?😉
Almost assuredly.  :D