Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 229117 times)

jebutler

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2020, 09:48:26 AM »
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/482607-klobuchar-we-need-to-build-a-big-tent-for-anti-abortion-democrats
Looking for something that would cause a Pro-Life voter to vote for Klobuchar ....

Pete Buttigieg received a question on the issue from an anti-abortion Democrat at a Fox News town hall last month. [/size][/font]

Here we see a very clear instance of media bias. Former Mayor Pete is asked this question by, apparently, some random 'anti-abortion Democrat' who apparently has no name or sex. Probably a white male. Imagine the outrage if the media spoke of some "black Democrat" who asked a question.

In fact, the question was asked by Kristin Day, the founder of Democrats for Life in America. I've read her stuff, listened to her on various podcasts, and have found her thoughtful and engaging.

One would think that the reporter would be interested in knowing this group exists and might be interested in speaking to her about why she thinks this is important, why she believes the Democrats should be pro-life, and how she felt about having her concerns dismissed by Former Mayor Pete.

But no. This question was not asked by a woman. Nor was it asked by a woman who has studied the issue in depth. It was asked by some nameless, sexless "anti-abortion Democrat."
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Dan Fienen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2020, 10:18:16 AM »
No, Donald Trump is not going to transform the United States into a pro-life city on a hill, orchestrate the overturning of Roe v. Wade, or something like that. He will not make pro-life issues the centerpiece of his campaign or agenda. So, we should vote for a Democrat who does not want to even listen to pro-life people, supports abortion on demand to the moment of birth? That would be better?
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Michael Slusser

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2020, 10:34:47 AM »

Representative Dan Lipinski is one of the few pro-life Democrats left in the house, and represents my district in the House.  He voted against the Affordable Care Act and has voted for restrictions on abortion.  He narrowly avoided losing in a primary in 2018 and they are gunning for him this time around again.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/09/dan-lipinski-pro-life-democrat-refuses-to-embrace-abortion-on-demand/
One of the many merits of the Affordable Care Act was its mandate to insurers to cover pre-natal, obstetrical, and post-natal care, even for the poor. I fear that, if the present president is allowed to rule much longer, poor mothers will lose access to care for themselves and the children they are expecting. If I am not mistaken, the ACC covered contraception but not abortion. As a pro-life person, I felt that it advanced the cause of life. I can't imagine why a pro-life congressman would have voted against it.

Peace,
Michael
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2020, 10:41:51 AM »

Representative Dan Lipinski is one of the few pro-life Democrats left in the house, and represents my district in the House.  He voted against the Affordable Care Act and has voted for restrictions on abortion.  He narrowly avoided losing in a primary in 2018 and they are gunning for him this time around again.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/09/dan-lipinski-pro-life-democrat-refuses-to-embrace-abortion-on-demand/
One of the many merits of the Affordable Care Act was its mandate to insurers to cover pre-natal, obstetrical, and post-natal care, even for the poor. I fear that, if the present president is allowed to rule much longer, poor mothers will lose access to care for themselves and the children they are expecting. If I am not mistaken, the ACC covered contraception but not abortion. As a pro-life person, I felt that it advanced the cause of life. I can't imagine why a pro-life congressman would have voted against it.

Peace,
Michael
So what motive do you attribute to pro-life congressman, 99% of whom voted against ACA? What is the most plausible explanation of their behavior?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2020, 01:28:26 PM »

Representative Dan Lipinski is one of the few pro-life Democrats left in the house, and represents my district in the House.  He voted against the Affordable Care Act and has voted for restrictions on abortion.  He narrowly avoided losing in a primary in 2018 and they are gunning for him this time around again.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/09/dan-lipinski-pro-life-democrat-refuses-to-embrace-abortion-on-demand/
One of the many merits of the Affordable Care Act was its mandate to insurers to cover pre-natal, obstetrical, and post-natal care, even for the poor. I fear that, if the present president is allowed to rule much longer, poor mothers will lose access to care for themselves and the children they are expecting. If I am not mistaken, the ACC covered contraception but not abortion. As a pro-life person, I felt that it advanced the cause of life. I can't imagine why a pro-life congressman would have voted against it.

Peace,
Michael
So what motive do you attribute to pro-life congressman, 99% of whom voted against ACA? What is the most plausible explanation of their behavior?


They are Republicans who don't want the government in the health care business (at least not beyond what they already are with medicare and medicaid). The idea that ACA might help reduce abortions was not a motivating issue.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Richard Johnson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2020, 04:43:43 PM »
"Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) on Tuesday said that the Democratic Party should be a 'big tent' for people of different beliefs, including those who oppose abortion rights.'

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/482607-klobuchar-we-need-to-build-a-big-tent-for-anti-abortion-democrats

Which runs completely counter to what Mayor Pete said:  https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/mayor-pete-dodges-the-question-again/

and front runner Bernie as well:  https://decisionmagazine.com/bernie-sanders-no-place-for-pro-life-democrats/?fbclid=IwAR3r9bNnVh8S9G6fVVb2UV70rTLy8NjI5kp6-K02bnDSC6EBpdjS7jRC7Xc

Exactly my point. If you are pro-life Democrat, you take what you can get. Klobuchar at least still allows room for dissenting opinions in the party.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Keith Falk

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2020, 04:51:56 PM »
"Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) on Tuesday said that the Democratic Party should be a 'big tent' for people of different beliefs, including those who oppose abortion rights.'

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/482607-klobuchar-we-need-to-build-a-big-tent-for-anti-abortion-democrats

Which runs completely counter to what Mayor Pete said:  https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/mayor-pete-dodges-the-question-again/

and front runner Bernie as well:  https://decisionmagazine.com/bernie-sanders-no-place-for-pro-life-democrats/?fbclid=IwAR3r9bNnVh8S9G6fVVb2UV70rTLy8NjI5kp6-K02bnDSC6EBpdjS7jRC7Xc

Exactly my point. If you are pro-life Democrat, you take what you can get. Klobuchar at least still allows room for dissenting opinions in the party.


She had a super impressive debate.  I wonder if/when Warren drops out, how her support will break - will they go Bernie for policy (and have to live with the Bernie Bros) or go Klobuchar for the strongest female candidate, even though they are less enamored of her policies?
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

mariemeyer

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2020, 05:11:24 PM »
What is Sen. Klobuchar going to say that will attract any pro-life person into her camp, or the Democrat's camp? That abortion in the 3rd trimester is a bridge too far? If she were to say that, it would be a lose-lose strategy on her part. She'd lose the Democratic party's support and she'd gain nothing from pro-lifers.

I have a hard time believing her comments were anything but disingenuous. I know there are pro-life Democrats; there just aren't any pro-life Democratic presidential candidates, or Congrrssional members.

Jeremy

And I have an even harder time believing President Trump's appearance at the Right to Life Walk was anything but disingenuous.

Marie Meyer.

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2020, 05:35:10 PM »
What is Sen. Klobuchar going to say that will attract any pro-life person into her camp, or the Democrat's camp? That abortion in the 3rd trimester is a bridge too far? If she were to say that, it would be a lose-lose strategy on her part. She'd lose the Democratic party's support and she'd gain nothing from pro-lifers.

I have a hard time believing her comments were anything but disingenuous. I know there are pro-life Democrats; there just aren't any pro-life Democratic presidential candidates, or Congrrssional members.

Jeremy

And I have an even harder time believing President Trump's appearance at the Right to Life Walk was anything but disingenuous.

Marie Meyer.

I believe that Pres. Trump's appearance at the rally was to court the Roman Catholic vote. So that would probably qualify as disingenuous. His actions as president have already demonstrated that he is the most pro-life president that has ever served, certainly among the presidents who talked the pro-life game but never really walked it while in office.

Jeremy
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2020, 05:48:44 PM »
What is Sen. Klobuchar going to say that will attract any pro-life person into her camp, or the Democrat's camp? That abortion in the 3rd trimester is a bridge too far? If she were to say that, it would be a lose-lose strategy on her part. She'd lose the Democratic party's support and she'd gain nothing from pro-lifers.

I have a hard time believing her comments were anything but disingenuous. I know there are pro-life Democrats; there just aren't any pro-life Democratic presidential candidates, or Congrrssional members.

Jeremy

And I have an even harder time believing President Trump's appearance at the Right to Life Walk was anything but disingenuous.

Marie Meyer.

I believe that Pres. Trump's appearance at the rally was to court the Roman Catholic vote. So that would probably qualify as disingenuous. His actions as president have already demonstrated that he is the most pro-life president that has ever served, certainly among the presidents who talked the pro-life game but never really walked it while in office.


He might be anti-abortion (or pro-birth,) but the way he has treated lives at the border is not pro-life. The way he wants to cut benefits to the the less advantaged among us, e.g., food stamps to poor families; he is not pro-life.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2020, 05:57:17 PM »
I don't think we gain anything by trying to determine what is in mind of the president or a candidate. And it doesn't really matter. What they do matters.  Think what we might about Trump, his actions, regarding the unborn, have been positive for those who wish to see greater protection for those in the womb.

As to reducing or removing benefits I am hesitant to pull such issues into the arena of pro-life and debate them in that area.  One reason is that to conclude Trump is by contrast 'anti-life,' that is, he wishes to remove or destroy life simply because of benefit removals or reductions, is not a fair assessment.  Do we know of significant numbers of people who are actually dying or will die simply because they will not receive government benefits?  Are the people who will be removed from this aid able to find resources outside of the government?  I remember 30 years ago, or so, when able-bodied men were removed from receiving direct welfare assistance in Michigan.  The cry in my poor country was loud.  But by removing this assistance when they were able to work did not consign them to certain death.  It encouraged them to work and contribute.   
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J.L. Precup

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2020, 06:14:36 PM »
Abortion results in the deaths of "more than 750,000 children," the bishop [Bishop Robert W. McElroy] said, yet "the long term death toll from unchecked climate change is larger and threatens the very future of humanity."

And while he called contraception "intrinsically evil...it is a far greater moral evil for our country to abandon the Paris Climate Accord than to provide contraceptives in federal health centers."
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2020, 08:30:27 PM »
Abortion results in the deaths of "more than 750,000 children," the bishop [Bishop Robert W. McElroy] said, yet "the long term death toll from unchecked climate change is larger and threatens the very future of humanity."

And while he called contraception "intrinsically evil...it is a far greater moral evil for our country to abandon the Paris Climate Accord than to provide contraceptives in federal health centers."

Bishop McElroy says that to "abandon" the Paris Climate Accord (which I am going to assume is pointed at Pres. Trump who announced withdrawing from it) is a "moral evil." Now the accord is no more than an agreement lacking any real enforcement.  That a country would agree but then fail to actually meet the targets to which they agreed would seem to be a "moral evil" as well, under this indictment. But who do we blame for that?  The president? Congress? Businesses that produce emissions deemed dangerous for the environment?  Those of us who drive and fly in modes of transportation that supposedly contribute to the creation of green house gasses?  All of the above?

His statement feels a lot like the blame one tries to place for the supposed exploitation of indigenous people, such as the Native Americans.  Who gets to shoulder this great "moral evil"? Do we blame the distant descendants of those who were supposedly responsible?  And who exactly from the past should get the lion's share of the blame?

The above, speaking of the election, reminds me of the rhetoric that claims we can't survive four more years of Trump.  We are, Biden claims, "in a battle for the soul of America."  The rhetoric is too often excessive and over-the-top.  But as long as we can have a concrete picture of who the evil is, then we have an enemy we can attack, the defeat of whom will spell happiness and hope for America again....
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

J.L. Precup

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2020, 08:38:50 PM »
Abortion results in the deaths of "more than 750,000 children," the bishop [Bishop Robert W. McElroy] said, yet "the long term death toll from unchecked climate change is larger and threatens the very future of humanity."

And while he called contraception "intrinsically evil...it is a far greater moral evil for our country to abandon the Paris Climate Accord than to provide contraceptives in federal health centers."

Bishop McElroy says that to "abandon" the Paris Climate Accord (which I am going to assume is pointed at Pres. Trump who announced withdrawing from it) is a "moral evil." Now the accord is no more than an agreement lacking any real enforcement.  That a country would agree but then fail to actually meet the targets to which they agreed would seem to be a "moral evil" as well, under this indictment. But who do we blame for that?  The president? Congress? Businesses that produce emissions deemed dangerous for the environment?  Those of us who drive and fly in modes of transportation that supposedly contribute to the creation of green house gasses?  All of the above?

His statement feels a lot like the blame one tries to place for the supposed exploitation of indigenous people, such as the Native Americans.  Who gets to shoulder this great "moral evil"? Do we blame the distant descendants of those who were supposedly responsible?  And who exactly from the past should get the lion's share of the blame?

The above, speaking of the election, reminds me of the rhetoric that claims we can't survive four more years of Trump.  We are, Biden claims, "in a battle for the soul of America."  The rhetoric is too often excessive and over-the-top.  But as long as we can have a concrete picture of who the evil is, then we have an enemy we can attack, the defeat of whom will spell happiness and hope for America again....

Trying and failing is different from failing to try.
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.

Matt Hummel

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2020, 08:41:32 PM »

Representative Dan Lipinski is one of the few pro-life Democrats left in the house, and represents my district in the House.  He voted against the Affordable Care Act and has voted for restrictions on abortion.  He narrowly avoided losing in a primary in 2018 and they are gunning for him this time around again.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/09/dan-lipinski-pro-life-democrat-refuses-to-embrace-abortion-on-demand/
One of the many merits of the Affordable Care Act was its mandate to insurers to cover pre-natal, obstetrical, and post-natal care, even for the poor. I fear that, if the present president is allowed to rule much longer, poor mothers will lose access to care for themselves and the children they are expecting. If I am not mistaken, the ACC covered contraception but not abortion. As a pro-life person, I felt that it advanced the cause of life. I can't imagine why a pro-life congressman would have voted against it.

Peace,
Michael
Maybe he listened to the Catholic Church? While the ACA has a number of laudable parts, its support for abortion and contraception without any room for conscience objections was, and continue to be, highly problematic. I recommend to you both the Catholic Medical Association and the National Catholic Bioethics Center for information on the ACA. At the time I was Director of Pro-Life Activities for the Diocese of Allentown, the USCCB also had information.
Matt Hummel


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