Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 187210 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4200 on: October 29, 2020, 09:52:24 PM »
Minnesota reports three COVID-19 outbreaks related to trump rallies
(CNN)The Minnesota Department of Health is reporting three Covid-19 outbreaks related to Trump campaign events held in the state in September.
   At least 23 cases have been traced to outbreaks occurring at rally events in Bemidji on September 18, a speech held by Vice President Mike Pence on September 24 in Minneapolis, and another rally held by President Donald Trump on September 30 in Duluth, the department said in an email to CNN.
   Minnesota defines an outbreak as "two or more cases of illness related by time and place in which an epidemiologic investigation suggests either person-to-person transmission occurred" or some other vehicle, such as contaminated water, is implicated. Public health experts say it is difficult to pinpoint any one event to overall changes in trends in light of the fact that there is overall increased community transmission. But experts also agree that holding such events in this climate is not a best practice for public health.
   Trump's Bemidji rally took place in an airport hanger. According to a CNN producer who attended the event, at least 2,000 people were in attendance. Based on contact tracing by the state Department of Health, at least 16 cases, including two hospitalizations, were identified among attendees.
   On September 24, Pence and the President's daughter, Ivanka Trump, held a "Cops for Trump" listening event indoors at the InterContinental Hotel in Minneapolis-St. Paul. The state Department of Health has found three event attendees with Covid-19 infections.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Missing NY/NJ and trips to Europe. I despise Daylight Savings Time which serves no purpose, disrupts my quotidian body clock and (I am reliably told) severely troubles cows and other huggable farm animals.

Julio

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4201 on: October 30, 2020, 12:50:19 AM »
Minnesota reports three COVID-19 outbreaks related to trump rallies
(CNN).
Yes ..  and what was probably never reported is that statistically 2.75 of those who became ill were either ill prior to attending the rally, or would have statistically caught the China virus anyway.

Had they actually died ... it would have been front page news .. the fact that they recovered is detrimental to the predetermined narrative of the fake news and as such was never reported.😷

Norman Teigen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4202 on: October 30, 2020, 06:50:38 AM »
I liked what Nicholas Kristof wrote in today's Times: "So to those who think I suffer from ďTrump Derangement Syndrome,Ē let me explain ó with respect, but also urgency ó that my intensity arises because I see Trump as not just a phony but also a threat. He has left the United States a more turbulent and divided nation, one close to war with itself.

"Today the greatest threat I perceive to Americaís national security isnít from Qaeda terrorists, Russian cyberattacks or Chinese missiles. As I see it, itís from Trumpís re-election.

"This is when conversations with friends become awkward. I may think that Trump bamboozled my pals, and they may think Iím manipulated by leftist propaganda, but we all have agency ó and we each think the other is using that agency to endanger a country we all love.

"I doubt Iíll change many minds. But the only thing I can do is reach out in a good-faith effort to undecided voters.

"Sometimes it works. Jani, a committed Christian, has worried about Democrats and abortion. But this time she will vote for Biden because sheís appalled at Trumpís policies toward migrants, Black Lives Matter and health care, and because ďGod cares about oppression, justice, the voiceless.Ē

"As Jani goes, so, I hope, will the nation."
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4203 on: October 30, 2020, 08:01:11 AM »
Given the folks who are positive that Trump is ruining the country, how many are planning on leaving if Trump is re-elected?  Or was that just a 2016 thing?

aletheist

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4204 on: October 30, 2020, 09:55:51 AM »
Nicholas Kristof: "He [Trump] has left the United States a more turbulent and divided nation, one close to war with itself."
Serious questions: Is this entirely Trump's fault? Do his opponents, who it seems to me are the ones stirring up most of the turbulence and division over the last four years, bear no responsibility for it at all? I ask as someone who did not and will not vote for Trump because I consider him temperamentally unfit for office.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

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with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4205 on: October 30, 2020, 09:57:24 AM »
I liked what Nicholas Kristof wrote in today's Times: "So to those who think I suffer from ďTrump Derangement Syndrome,Ē let me explain ó with respect, but also urgency ó that my intensity arises because I see Trump as not just a phony but also a threat. He has left the United States a more turbulent and divided nation, one close to war with itself.

"Today the greatest threat I perceive to Americaís national security isnít from Qaeda terrorists, Russian cyberattacks or Chinese missiles. As I see it, itís from Trumpís re-election.

"This is when conversations with friends become awkward. I may think that Trump bamboozled my pals, and they may think Iím manipulated by leftist propaganda, but we all have agency ó and we each think the other is using that agency to endanger a country we all love.

"I doubt Iíll change many minds. But the only thing I can do is reach out in a good-faith effort to undecided voters.

"Sometimes it works. Jani, a committed Christian, has worried about Democrats and abortion. But this time she will vote for Biden because sheís appalled at Trumpís policies toward migrants, Black Lives Matter and health care, and because ďGod cares about oppression, justice, the voiceless.Ē

"As Jani goes, so, I hope, will the nation."
Every time I see the TV ads of Joe Biden solemnly intoning his promise to bring the country together I don't know whether to laugh or cry. This is the candidate that assured a Black voter that if he even needed to think about whether or not to vote for him he must not be really Black. The Democrat method of bringing the country together seems to be to insist that everybody become Democrats.


Now, I am not trying to say that Donald Trump isn't obnoxious, petty, and belligerent. He is all of that, but to pretend that he is to blame for all of the divisiveness in the country is to inhabit a phantasy world. I'm sure that Trump is hard to work with, but the Left, which is the world in which Democrats live never even tried but made it clear that if they did not rule they would disrupt. It was Democrats that called on people to hound and harass anyone who was associated with the Trump White House so that they could not show their faces in public. Many on the left to this day want to reject the Trump presidency as illegitimate. It was Democrats that launched a huge Congressional investigation into accusations that Trump colluded with the Russians to steal the 2016 election, solemnly assuring the American public that they had irrefutable proof that just needed a little of time and effort to be ready to present. Only the proof never materialized. That the Russians tried to interfere, yes, but that Trump or his campaign colluded with them now. Meanwhile, lies were told and documents faked to support spying on the Trump campaign and nascent administration. These were efforts to bring the country together? They were efforts to crush and dominate Trump and the Republicans not reach out to those across the aisle and work together.


How about the hypocrisy of the "Me Too" movement. I agree that it is past time for women who have been sexually assaulted and exploited by powerful men to be able to come forward and name their accusers and receive a just hearing. But why does it seem that women are to be always believed when accusations are levied against prominent Republicans but when against prominent Democrats the women are to be ignored or shamed into silence. Why are accusations to be always believed when levied by women and the men involved presumed guilty and treated as such, except if they are Democrats, of course. After all, even if the men turn out to be in fact innocent women must be supported and the few men not guilty as charged are probably guilty of something else. Their lives need to be sacrificed for the good of women everywhere, and as pay back for all the other men who avoided blame. As for the women prayed upon by Democrats who generally support the feminist cause, well sometime sacrifices must be made. This brings the country together?


Trump has certainly not been conciliatory, but neither has his opponents. Neither provides excuse for the other. Consider that for a moment. Trump is not justified for his bellicosity by the bad behavior of the Democrats! But neither are the Democrats by Trump and the Republicans bad behaviors. To lay all the blame for the discord in the country on Trump is to ignore the Democrats role in it. Democrats have shown themselves to be perfectly willing to get along with other people so long as their hegemony in government and society is insured and the opposition is the loyal opposition who never pose a serious alternative narrative.


When I hear the Democrats call for and promise peace and harmony in the nation what I hear is a call for them to dominate and any opposing views to either shut up or go away.
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D. Engebretson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4206 on: October 30, 2020, 10:05:56 AM »
Nicholas Kristof: "He [Trump] has left the United States a more turbulent and divided nation, one close to war with itself."
Serious questions: Is this entirely Trump's fault? Do his opponents, who it seems to me are the ones stirring up most of the turbulence and division over the last four years, bear no responsibility for it at all? I ask as someone who did not and will not vote for Trump because I consider him temperamentally unfit for office.

I think it's easy to lay the blame at the feet of only one, but there's plenty to go around.  Those on the far right have stirred up excitement against the left, but those on the hard left have become just as confrontational and militant.  We were a deeply divided nation before the real hard turbulence erupted, especially on issues now considered moral absolutes.  Of course one might think here of abortion from the right, but issues like climate change, gender rights issues, and freedom of choice from the left are now entrenched just as deeply as issues for which one fights, not just debates.  Politics all over Washington are deeply partisan.  Gone are days of arguing on the floor for a debate and then going across the street to the pub for a beer and friendly banter.   On a spiritual note I see it as satanic opportunism.  Behind violence and lying you will find the familiar dark presence lurking.  Again, some might find that too 'over the top,' but as a spiritual leader who views his world through a biblical lens, that's what its looking like to me. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

James

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4207 on: October 30, 2020, 12:53:51 PM »
Nicholas Kristof: "He [Trump] has left the United States a more turbulent and divided nation, one close to war with itself."
Serious questions: Is this entirely Trump's fault? Do his opponents, who it seems to me are the ones stirring up most of the turbulence and division over the last four years, bear no responsibility for it at all? I ask as someone who did not and will not vote for Trump because I consider him temperamentally unfit for office.

I think it's easy to lay the blame at the feet of only one, but there's plenty to go around.  Those on the far right have stirred up excitement against the left, but those on the hard left have become just as confrontational and militant.  We were a deeply divided nation before the real hard turbulence erupted, especially on issues now considered moral absolutes.  Of course one might think here of abortion from the right, but issues like climate change, gender rights issues, and freedom of choice from the left are now entrenched just as deeply as issues for which one fights, not just debates.  Politics all over Washington are deeply partisan.  Gone are days of arguing on the floor for a debate and then going across the street to the pub for a beer and friendly banter.   On a spiritual note I see it as satanic opportunism.  Behind violence and lying you will find the familiar dark presence lurking.  Again, some might find that too 'over the top,' but as a spiritual leader who views his world through a biblical lens, that's what its looking like to me. 
Tragically...much of the division in the country is not only because of sin ... but in support of transgression of the good and gracious will of God. 

What were the hot button items in the recent SCOTUS hearings ... the sin of murderous abortion ... and the sinful LBGQIA??? culture. We are divided over what is sin and what isnít.

Tragically even in the church there is disagreement on theses topics.  Scripture does teach that the Lord gives us rulers .. either as a blessing ... or as a chastisement ... again here there is little agreement as to which ruler is a blessing and which ruler is a chastisement.🤭
If necessary, there will be a peaceful transfer of power on Jan 20, 2021.

In the event election fraud is proven in the courts of our country, there will be an inauguration ceremony ... no transfer of power necessary.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4208 on: October 30, 2020, 01:15:18 PM »
But why does it seem that women are to be always believed when accusations are levied against prominent Republicans but when against prominent Democrats the women are to be ignored or shamed into silence.

Ask Al Franken.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4209 on: October 30, 2020, 01:20:30 PM »
But why does it seem that women are to be always believed when accusations are levied against prominent Republicans but when against prominent Democrats the women are to be ignored or shamed into silence.

Ask Al Franken.
The difference, of course, being that Frankenís case wasnít a he said/she said, but a photo. The issue was how big a deal it was, not whether it happened.

Norman Teigen

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4210 on: October 30, 2020, 02:17:10 PM »
RE the Minnesota Districts and the Voting Guide.  A few thoughts for Pastor Bohler and others to consider.  I have communicated with two life-long Missouri Synod members who believe  that the Voting Guide is inappropriate.  One said that the Voting guide is a demonstration that Missouri has set aside its long standing teaching on the Two Kingdoms.  The Synod has sold its doctrinal heritage for a mess of pottage.  One former member of the Missouri Synod said the the Voting guide would never be accepted by younger persons and was a barrier to those who might want to become members of the Lutheran Church. 

Several weeks ago the Gospel reading was the account of the tricksters who presented Jesus with a gotcha question.  'Is it lawful to pay taxes?'    Jesus asked for a coin and asked whose image was on it.  The answer was that it was Ceasar's. Jesus said to give to Caesar what was Caesar's and give to God what was God's.  The lesson was that there are two kingdoms, two realms.  There are two things to be considered.  The answer is that God's way is better than Caesar's.

Another example of this Two Kingdom teaching is that Jesus told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world.  The Lutheran Confessions uphold this teaching.  See for example Article XVI of the Apology to the Augsburg Confession (Political Order):"Christ's kingdom is spiritual; it is the knowledge of God in the heart, the fear of God and faith...At the same time it lets us make outward use of the legitimate political ordinances of the nation in which we live, just as it makes use of medicine or architecture, food or drink or air.  The Gospel does not introduce any new laws about the civil estate, but commands us to obey the existing laws, whether they were formulated by heathen or by others, and in this obedience to obey love."

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in its Brief Statement upholds the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms:  "Accordingly we condemn the policy of those who would have the power of the State employed "in the interest of the Church" and who thus turn the Church into a secular dominion; as also of those who, aiming to govern the State by the Word of God, seek to turn the State into a Church."

I have an idea that this Voters Guide was not written by Presidents Fondow and Woodford.  I think these Presidents got the document from one of President Harrison's favorite resources, the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF).  No other districts in the Missouri Synod have adopted this Voting Guide, to the best of my knowledge.  I think that someone advised the Presidents to do something important at the time of the election and pulled this Guide out of the cloud and disseminated it to the faithful.  It shows to me that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not today confess the same doctrine that it once did.   
Norman Teigen

D. Engebretson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4211 on: October 30, 2020, 02:28:44 PM »
The Synod has sold its doctrinal heritage for a mess of pottage...I think that someone advised the Presidents to do something important at the time of the election and pulled this Guide out of the cloud and disseminated it to the faithful.  It shows to me that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not today confess the same doctrine that it once did.

Please be careful in indicting and condemning an entire Synod on the basis of an unproven assumption. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4212 on: October 30, 2020, 02:34:18 PM »
Appropriate/inappropriate is not the same distinction as true/false doctrine.

jebutler

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4213 on: October 30, 2020, 02:45:06 PM »
RE the Minnesota Districts and the Voting Guide.  A few thoughts for Pastor Bohler and others to consider.  I have communicated with two life-long Missouri Synod members who believe  that the Voting Guide is inappropriate.  One said that the Voting guide is a demonstration that Missouri has set aside its long standing teaching on the Two Kingdoms.  The Synod has sold its doctrinal heritage for a mess of pottage.  One former member of the Missouri Synod said the the Voting guide would never be accepted by younger persons and was a barrier to those who might want to become members of the Lutheran Church. 

These are nice opinions, but they are not evidence of false doctrine. You did not say that the guide was "inappropriate." You said it contained false doctrine.

Stealth editing by removing your post is cowardly. If you are going to do that, then own your accusation, apologize for it, and state that you are removing it. But if you are going to stick with your accusation, then provide evidence of it.

As it is, I disagree with these two LCMS folks that you spoke to. (Indeed, I would have no problem finding many LCMS Lutherans who would strongly affirm it. Heck, I could even find some who would argue it doesn't go far enough!) As I read it, it gave a matrix for Christians to use as the consider who to vote for, issues that Scripture clearly addresses as they make that consideration, and possible questions to ask candidates. Nothing is said about particular candidates or parties.

Do you still stand by your accusation of false doctrine? Yes or no. If yes, please cite quotations from the guide which demonstrate false doctrine.

You can also include statements that demonstrate that the authors do not understand Luther's theory of the two kingdoms. Reading through it, I'm of the opinion that the guide is a very good example of that theory.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Richard Johnson

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #4214 on: October 30, 2020, 03:01:50 PM »


These are nice opinions, but they are not evidence of false doctrine. You did not say that the guide was "inappropriate." You said it contained false doctrine.

Stealth editing by removing your post is cowardly.

Mr. Tiegen did not remove his original post and the responses to it, I did. I thought it was an unreasonable and out-of-line accusation and did nothing to advance the conversation.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS