Author Topic: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’  (Read 17593 times)

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2020, 05:26:31 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2020, 06:54:40 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?


One never smoked. The other has quit. When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2020, 11:02:33 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2020, 11:11:21 AM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.


Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2020, 04:23:32 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.

Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.

Now you may be beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or, how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.

Pax, Steven+
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #80 on: February 04, 2020, 04:32:59 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.

Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.

Now you may be beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or, how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.


And Rosa Parks should have given up her bus seat to the white passenger.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2020, 04:35:21 PM »
...or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?

I would think that, at the very least, you wouldn't lie to them about who they are before God as men or women, and what behaviors are proscribed for the sake of their own health and well-being and that of the communities they wish to serve.

Dan Fienen

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2020, 04:53:45 PM »
It should be apparent by now that while there are some similarities in belief between the ELCA of Pr. Stoffregen and the LCMS of many of us according to Pr. Stoffregen we also differ on some fundamental point such as that he promotes a Gospel of grace, we promote a legalistic Gospel that is antithetical to Christ. No wonder we disagree and have not found it possible to just overlook our differences and establish fellowship.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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David Garner

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2020, 05:00:00 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.

Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.

Now you may be beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or, how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.


And Rosa Parks should have given up her bus seat to the white passenger.

There should be a Godwin's law for baseless insinuations that a debate opponent is just like segregationists.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2020, 05:21:32 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.

Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.

Now you may be beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or, how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.

And Rosa Parks should have given up her bus seat to the white passenger.

Okay, you're not beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.  You're all for regulating who can be ordained, as long as no one who feels she has "God's Call" is actually denied ordination.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 07:44:25 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
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Eileen Smith

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2020, 06:47:13 PM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.

Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.

Now you may be beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or, how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.


And Rosa Parks should have given up her bus seat to the white passenger.

Why is the ordination of women (or LGBTQ+ for that matter) a political issue, one of human rights to be legislated.  It's a theological matter and every church body has a right to continue practicing the faith which is been their doctrine. if this woman does feel a call to ordained ministry wouldn't it be better to answer that call by going through the process to ordination in another church body?  For a woman to stay in a church that doesn't ordain women when they feel they are receiving a God-given call is a bit like saying, "OK God, but we'll do it my way."   Of course, her way is staying in the church for years as a victim.   A dear friend loved her LCMS congregation and was very active.  She loved the pastor of her youth and to this day speaks of him with love and gratitude.  Yet she had a call to ordained ministry and went into an LCA congregation.  She stayed there for two years before going to seminary going on shut-in calls and helping the pastor in other ways to 'test' that she was meant for this ministry.  It can be very painful to leave one's church but if you are truly feeling God's call that might mean some sacrifice. 

I also don't understand how the church shows love by ordaining someone when it is against their doctrine.  If we don't get what we want is our first reaction, "you don't love me."   If she can't accept that God may be calling her in other ways I'd say the church is probably right in this case.  Even if they voted to ordain women tomorrow, they might wish to show their love for the congregations in their synod rather than place someone who one wonders about fitness to ministry.  I have seen too many congregations ruined because a kindly bishop got involved in the candidacy process with candidates who should never have been placed in a congregation. 

Charles Austin

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2020, 07:13:16 PM »
I can say “Amen” to what Eileen just posted.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2020, 01:03:01 AM »
How should I show love towards the lady who spoke at the conference who cannot respond to God's Call in her own church body; or to homosexual friends who are ordained but wished to fall in love and have a lifetime helpmate? How do you show love for these fellow believers?


Do you let your sons smoke in your house?

When he smoked, he voluntarily went outside to smoke. We were known to drive him to the store so he could buy some more.

But he really wanted to smoke in the house.

Nope. He didn't even smoke in his own apartment. He'd go outside. He began smoking when working fast foods, and for a smoking break, employees had to go outdoors. They couldn't smoke in the building.

Now you may be beginning to see how to show love to the Australian Lutheran laywoman.  Or, how she can show love to the Lutheran Church of Australia.


And Rosa Parks should have given up her bus seat to the white passenger.

Why is the ordination of women (or LGBTQ+ for that matter) a political issue, one of human rights to be legislated.  It's a theological matter and every church body has a right to continue practicing the faith which is been their doctrine. if this woman does feel a call to ordained ministry wouldn't it be better to answer that call by going through the process to ordination in another church body?  For a woman to stay in a church that doesn't ordain women when they feel they are receiving a God-given call is a bit like saying, "OK God, but we'll do it my way."   Of course, her way is staying in the church for years as a victim.   A dear friend loved her LCMS congregation and was very active.  She loved the pastor of her youth and to this day speaks of him with love and gratitude.  Yet she had a call to ordained ministry and went into an LCA congregation.  She stayed there for two years before going to seminary going on shut-in calls and helping the pastor in other ways to 'test' that she was meant for this ministry.  It can be very painful to leave one's church but if you are truly feeling God's call that might mean some sacrifice. 

I also don't understand how the church shows love by ordaining someone when it is against their doctrine.  If we don't get what we want is our first reaction, "you don't love me."   If she can't accept that God may be calling her in other ways I'd say the church is probably right in this case.  Even if they voted to ordain women tomorrow, they might wish to show their love for the congregations in their synod rather than place someone who one wonders about fitness to ministry.  I have seen too many congregations ruined because a kindly bishop got involved in the candidacy process with candidates who should never have been placed in a congregation.


However, a majority in her church body has voted to approve the ordination of women, but it requires a 2/3 majority to pass. 60% isn’t enough to change the rules.


She is playing by the rules, while disagreeing with them. She hasn’t sought an irregular ordination or consecrated holy communion. She is ministering to patients in a hospital and supervising clergy taking CPE.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2020, 06:16:29 AM »
I don't believe that Australian Lutherans are afflicted by our divisions. As far as I know there is only one Lutheran Church body in Australia. Switching to the ELCA is not an option as it would be in the U.S.A.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Eileen Smith

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Re: What Qualifies as ‘Similar Belief’
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2020, 08:19:10 AM »
In the story that you shared, Pastor Stoffregen, you wrote that colleagues are going to the Anglican church for ordination.  From your initial post on the subject of this woman:

I was just at a conference where a speaker from the Australian Lutheran Church lamented the fact that she feels called to the ordained ministry, she has been through seminary, she is a CPE supervisor helping to form clergy; but she cannot yet be ordained in the LCA. She does feel victimized by the church that she loves. She speaks out against their practice. Perhaps, like your accusation against me: she is both a victim and an abuser of her church body. While over the years the number of votes for changing the practices have increased, it hasn't reached the 2/3 majority that is necessary. (The last vote was about 60% in favor.) She is not willing, as many of her friends have done, to switch to the Anglican church where she could be ordained.

It would seem her friends are going over to the Anglican church but she is not willing.  Yet she wants to stay in a church where she feels victimized, speaks out against their practice, and is both a victim and an abuser of her church.  There seems to be a path to ordination for her.   It might not be a Lutheran path but it is one other Lutherans have apparently walked.