Welcome to Chicago

[Michael_Rothaar]

Pr. Rothaar-
that is exactly what I am looking for;  I'd like to head downtown to observe a bit, and I'd like to plan prudently (e.g. not taking the train in and getting stuck listening to discussions about finance).  If a more complete schedule is released, would you please post it?

Did you notice that when you're at http://www.elca.org/assembly/index.html, the right sight of the screen is a navigation frame that is carried forward  on all the sub-pages. Within that navigation screen, there's a calendar. When you click on any of the assembly dates, it opens up a more detailed agenda for that day. If a more detailed agenda is published, I suspect that's where it'll be.

[Rev. BT Ball]

Mike, thanks for the help, I hadn't noticed that.
Peace, Pr. Ben Ball+

[Erma_S._Wolf]

   From another website I have learned that the opening session on Monday night will have, in addition to the adoption of the rules and the agenda (will it be as interesting as in 2005? Could be!), the first ballot for presiding bishop. 

    I'm already in Chicago (I'm attending Worship Jubilee).  Got in late so I didn't get over to Navy Pier tonight.  Actually, I'm lucky to have a room at all; the Hyatt overbooked. (I'm sleeping on a couch tonight.  They've promised a rollaway bed by tomorrow night.)  Hope this gets cleared up by Monday, when most of the assembly voting members come in!

Erma Wolf

[ptmccain]

Just in time for the Assembly...

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/faith/entries/2007/08/03/thats_one_big_closet_more_than_1.html

Quote from the story:

Are you serious, I thought when I heard the voice mail. More than 80 Lutheran ministers will go public with their homosexual identity next week? Mind you, these clergy members serve a comparatively liberal branch of Lutheranism, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. But still, many of those coming out on Tuesday are in homosexual relationships, and the ELCA restricts ordination to heterosexuals who are faithful in marriage or celibate homosexuals. As it happens, the ELCA will be debating the issue of dropping the celibacy requirement for gay ministers at its biennial assembly next week in Chicago. I got the phone message about next week’s press conference from a fellow with Lutherans Concerned/North America, a group that supports people of “all sexual orientations and gender identities.”

Interesting story in the Tribune on these issues:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/southsouthwest/chi-lutheransaug03,1,6348304.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

[Maryland Brian]

Just in time for the Assembly...

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/faith/entries/2007/08/03/thats_one_big_closet_more_than_1.html

   In reading the article, I found this quote more intriguing to me personally:

"The Lutheran communion has not come to the point of division over human sexuality," he added. "It's not to minimize the tension, but it is to affirm the thoughtfulness with which we have engaged each other."

Hanson, who at this assembly seeks re-election to a second six-year term as presiding bishop, expressed hope that the assembly will not eclipse efforts to develop a statement on human sexuality by 2009.

 Since he is the president of the body in question, I would think Hanson would know we are part of a federation, not a communion.  That language, a Lutheran Communion, was studied and rejected a number of years ago by the LWF.  I wonder what he's playing at by taking it upon himself to change the language and the structural intent of the Lutheran World Federation?  Or was it badly quoted by the reporter?

Be that as it may, I interpret his comments in the rest of the article to mean he's probably aware that what's happening in TEC would quickly happen in the ELCA should the policy be changed.  Sounds like he and the memorials committee would prefer to punt for a few years.

Maryland Brian

[Bergs]

Just in time for the Assembly...

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/faith/entries/2007/08/03/thats_one_big_closet_more_than_1.html

Quote from the story:

Are you serious, I thought when I heard the voice mail. More than 80 Lutheran ministers will go public with their homosexual identity next week? Mind you, these clergy members serve a comparatively liberal branch of Lutheranism, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. But still, many of those coming out on Tuesday are in homosexual relationships, and the ELCA restricts ordination to heterosexuals who are faithful in marriage or celibate homosexuals. As it happens, the ELCA will be debating the issue of dropping the celibacy requirement for gay ministers at its biennial assembly next week in Chicago. I got the phone message about next week’s press conference from a fellow with Lutherans Concerned/North America, a group that supports people of “all sexual orientations and gender identities.”

What?  LCNA is planning a big surprise?  They are trying to introduce some more spin in a rather emotional way?  What a newsflash.  If this is the only attempted shocker used at Navy Pier the delegates should consider themselves fortunate.  LCNA continues to be an embarassment as an officially recognized ELCA organization.

It will be interesting to see if they actually publish the list.  Then it will be interesting to see if the names are new or already known names such as if Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, etc. will be on it.  In fact I can probably come up with 20 names just off the top of my head.  The closet door might have already opened and this is just a reworking of old news. 

The goodsoil website lists all kinds of opportunities that LCNA and her allies will be using to change policy by playing on delegates' emotions.  With all of the events, I don't notice a Bible study, but then they might discover an inconvenient truth.

Grace & Peace,
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN

[Kurt Strause]

Since he is the president of the body in question, I would think Hanson would know we are part of a federation, not a communion.  That language, a Lutheran Communion, was studied and rejected a number of years ago by the LWF.  I wonder what he's playing at by taking it upon himself to change the language and the structural intent of the Lutheran World Federation?  Or was it badly quoted by the reporter?
Maryland Brian

I'm not exactly sure when the exact words "a Lutheran Communion" were studied and rejected by the LWF, but the LWF defines itself as a "communion of churches which confess the Triune God, agree in the proclamation of the Word of God and are united in pulpit and altar fellowship." (LWF Constitution, Article III) This was affirmed at Winnipeg in 2003.

I can see a subtle distinction between the LWF as "a Lutheran Communion" and a "communion of churches," but its probably lost on a secular reporter.

Kurt Strause

[Brian Stoffregen]

It will be interesting to see if they actually publish the list.  Then it will be interesting to see if the names are new or already known names such as if Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, etc. will be on it.  In fact I can probably come up with 20 names just off the top of my head.  The closet door might have already opened and this is just a reworking of old news.

A reminder: Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, Steve Sabin, among many others are not on the ELCA clergy roster. They could be used by the "traditionalists" to indicate how our ELCA policy does keep "practicing homosexuals" off our clergy roster.

[Pr. Jerry]

Just in time for the Assembly...

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/faith/entries/2007/08/03/thats_one_big_closet_more_than_1.html

Quote from the story:

Are you serious, I thought when I heard the voice mail. More than 80 Lutheran ministers will go public with their homosexual identity next week? Mind you, these clergy members serve a comparatively liberal branch of Lutheranism, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. But still, many of those coming out on Tuesday are in homosexual relationships, and the ELCA restricts ordination to heterosexuals who are faithful in marriage or celibate homosexuals. As it happens, the ELCA will be debating the issue of dropping the celibacy requirement for gay ministers at its biennial assembly next week in Chicago. I got the phone message about next week’s press conference from a fellow with Lutherans Concerned/North America, a group that supports people of “all sexual orientations and gender identities.”

What?  LCNA is planning a big surprise?  They are trying to introduce some more spin in a rather emotional way?  What a newsflash.  If this is the only attempted shocker used at Navy Pier the delegates should consider themselves fortunate.  LCNA continues to be an embarassment as an officially recognized ELCA organization.

It will be interesting to see if they actually publish the list.  Then it will be interesting to see if the names are new or already known names such as if Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, etc. will be on it.  In fact I can probably come up with 20 names just off the top of my head.  The closet door might have already opened and this is just a reworking of old news. 

The goodsoil website lists all kinds of opportunities that LCNA and her allies will be using to change policy by playing on delegates' emotions.  With all of the events, I don't notice a Bible study, but then they might discover an inconvenient truth.

LC/NA has, for several months now, been publicizing an effort they call "The Missing Members (or Pieces, I can't remember right off the top...) of the Body of Christ" in which they have been compling names, pictures, and testimonials of clergy whom they say have been marginalized or driven from ministry because of their sexual orientation.  I don't know if this has anything to do with this other story, but they were supposed to be unveiling the project outside the CWA to call attention to the plight of the church, which is incomplete (as they see it) without these clergy...

As I remember it, I saw one voting member, a Pastor from Long Beach, CA, rise and address the 2005 assembly by announcing that he had been violating V+E for seven years and had been keeping it from his Bishop.  I don't recall any adverse reactions to his revelation.  Point is, just how deep can "the closet" be when you can reveal your "secret" in front of the P.B., the CWA, and the whole world and not suffer any reprocussions?  You can even check that you are not going to abide by V+E on your mobility paperwork for God's sake.  So eighty-some-odd clergy are "coming out."  Whether they're new names, familiar names, or some mixture (probably this is the case...) of both, what exactly do they expect to happen?  

I think it is a rather feeble attempt at drama that the press will likely play up, but should be met with a chorus of yawns.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
 

[Pr. Jerry]

A reminder: Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, Steve Sabin, among many others are not on the ELCA clergy roster. They could be used by the "traditionalists" to indicate how our ELCA policy does keep "practicing homosexuals" off our clergy roster.

Actually Brian, they will be used by the "pro-change" side to indicate how ELCA policy does keep "practicing homosexuals" off the roster. 

For that matter, Jeff Johnson, Anita Hill, and Brad Schmelling among others continue to serve ELCA congregations and ministries.  So this "traditionalist" asks: How exactly does the ELCA policy keep discipline amongst it's ordained ministers?  For whether they're "on the roster" or not, they are serving with and amongst us.  Which is, I believe, LC/NA's point.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
 

[Brian Stoffregen]

For that matter, Jeff Johnson, Anita Hill, and Brad Schmelling among others continue to serve ELCA congregations and ministries.  So this "traditionalist" asks: How exactly does the ELCA policy keep discipline amongst it's ordained ministers?  For whether they're "on the roster" or not, they are serving with and amongst us.  Which is, I believe, LC/NA's point.

Yes, these and others are serving ELCA congregations. Then the issue is about the discipline of congregations who have called non-rostered clergy. This has not happened. Even the bishop who filed charges against Schmelling has said that he will not pursue discipline against the congregation. (His successor has already been elected.)

[scott3]

Sounds like this could be a good opportunity for exercising some doctrinal discipline.

[Pr. Jerry]

Sounds like this could be a good opportunity for exercising some doctrinal discipline.

It would be, but it won't...  After all, what are you supposed to do when only some Bishops will excercise their authority (like Bp. Warren), and then only partially, but their neighboring Bishops will not.  So when you do excercise authority and discipline you get castigated while others who refuse to excercise their authority are lauded.  It's amazing to me that our Bishops retain their sanity, but then again we are the ones responsible for electing them over, and over again.  So it shouldn't be a surprise to us that we've gotten the Bishops, we in fact, deserve.

Besides, the heart-and-soul of the ELCA these days is that, for every rule, there must be exceptions.  So discipline, doctrinal or behavioral, is thwarted because how can you ever hope to enforce a rule that has exceptions?

Not to mention (and I hate this logic...) that's what LC/NA is looking for: a new group of "martyrs."  They want the publicity of 80 disciplinary hearings.  Not sying that we should decide (as a denomination) what we do because of what LC/NA wants, mind you, but the reality is that if discipline was enjoined, they would trumpet the "injustice" of the situation on every paper, television news program, and accross the web.  Bp. Hanson sure doesn't want that heat, and neither do most Synodical Bishops. 

So the long and the short of it is, we'll have to endure these 80+ being lionized as paragons of honesty and courage.  And so it goes.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[navyman]

It will be interesting to see if they actually publish the list.  Then it will be interesting to see if the names are new or already known names such as if Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, etc. will be on it.  In fact I can probably come up with 20 names just off the top of my head.  The closet door might have already opened and this is just a reworking of old news.

A reminder: Anita Hill, Bradley Schmeling, Jeff Johnson, Steve Sabin, among many others are not on the ELCA clergy roster. They could be used by the "traditionalists" to indicate how our ELCA policy does keep "practicing homosexuals" off our clergy roster.

As one Pastor has indicated before, the ELCA doesn't have any active gay pastors.  Please Brian, it wasn't the "traditionalist" who got us into this mess.  As you know our views were silence in the sexuality study, as well as any discussion, that was based on the Bible, was silenced. It was the Liberal and Revisionist, from the very start of the ELCA.  ALC, had nothing to do with it, it was the Liberal side if your remember!

Do you think for a min, that the ELCA is going to let the Bible stand in the way of gay acceptance, glory theology, gay theology, and the confessions that we don't keep.

Come On Brian, not all of the pew members march to the tune of HQ @ Higgins Rd, or the Bishops of the ELCA.  After all its the pew members who have been fighting this all along, but our voice aren't heard by the Liberal or Revisionist side.

Not all pastors, within the ELCA are committed to gay ordination or gay anything.  There is no special sin Brian!  Although, the ELCA seems to believe more in Glory Theology, and sees it as no sin!  Of course Luther taught differently, Theology of the Cross, conversion, repentance, forgiviness, and picking up one cross and following Christ alone, not the teaching of humankind!

Regards!

Don

Regards!

Don Whitbeck

[Richard Johnson]

Even the bishop who filed charges against Schmelling has said that he will not pursue discipline against the congregation. (His successor has already been elected.)

Now how exactly are you going to spin his decision not to pursue discipline? From reading his letter announcing his decision, my read on it would be: Of course he's not. He's a lame duck, a disciplinary procedure takes months if not years, and nothing would be more unfair to his successor than to hand him an in process disciplinary matter. Bp. Warren did exactly the right thing under the circumstances, which is to tell the congregation council they should be in touch with their new bishop as he decides whether or not to file charges against them for violating their constitution.